so, if we did not learn enough following the french into indochina, we
can learn more by following the russians into afghanastan? this does
not seem like a sucess path to me.
the successful part of our culture is about tolerance and learning to
live with folk different than we (for many values of 'we' and
'different').
Randy, I truly doubt you understand the idea of war and protection of our
citizens. The USA is not going to retaliate... It is answering a call of
war - one that has been ongoing for many years. Unlike the Russians going
into Afghanistan, our even the US going into South Viet Nam (or the French
in your example), we have the skill to go up to the street bully, knock
him out, knock the dust off our hands and walk away. It is not like it
needs to be 20,000 troops driving into that country.
Standing back and hoping it will go away because we want to be "peaceful"
has NOT proven to work over the last ten years.
resist the cycle of violence and hate.
I agree. But this action doesn't need to be attached the words violence
and hate. It is better attributed to, enough is enough, and knock the
bully out. Truly, that simple.
Best regards to you Randy,
I think Randy understands all too well. This war will not be fought on some
distant shore. It will not be fought in Afghanistan. It will be fought right
here--in our houses, in our streets, in our workplaces. Are you all ready for
that?
The USA will retaliate, but it must not do so capriciously, and it must not do
so with the insane mob mentalities that have been floating about this and other
lists. Make no mistake, our country must defend itself. But even in the wake
of these heinous acts we cannot let our conduct make us the terrorists and
oppressors and imperialists that the fanatics say we are.
It is truly a cycle. Not only of violence and hate, but of staying true to our
values. When a bully is rampant in the school yard, if one person knocks this
bully out, the bully is still free to pick on other, weaker souls. It is only
when all stand together and refuse to be bullied or to support the bully's
actions that the aggressor finds he has no audience, and thus no power.
David Klindt wrote:
I think Randy understands all too well. This war will not be fought on
some distant shore. It will not be fought in Afghanistan. It will be
fought right here--in our houses, in our streets, in our workplaces. Are
you all ready for that?
The USA will retaliate, but it must not do so capriciously, and it must
not do so with the insane mob mentalities that have been floating about
this and other lists. Make no mistake, our country must defend itself.
But even in the wake of these heinous acts we cannot let our conduct make
us the terrorists and oppressors and imperialists that the fanatics say we
are.
It is truly a cycle. Not only of violence and hate, but of staying true
to our values. When a bully is rampant in the school yard, if one person
knocks this bully out, the bully is still free to pick on other, weaker
souls. It is only when all stand together and refuse to be bullied or to
support the bully's actions that the aggressor finds he has no audience,
and thus no power.
and the hardest part is doing so without being bullies ourselves. and we
should be sensitive about this as we are not _perceived_ as having done
well in this respect for the last half century. and this latter seems to
be a factor in the mess we find ourselves today.
randy
I think Randy understands all too well. This war will not be fought on some
distant shore. It will not be fought in Afghanistan. It will be fought right
here--in our houses, in our streets, in our workplaces. Are you all ready for
that?
Sir, the war is being fought here already! In some form, it has been for
years.
The USA will retaliate, but it must not do so capriciously,
I agree... A well though out procedure is the best.
bully out, the bully is still free to pick on other, weaker souls. It is only
when all stand together and refuse to be bullied or to support the bully's
actions that the aggressor finds he has no audience, and thus no power.
Well, if we really "knock out" the bully, he will not be around to mess
with others.
My fear is (1) that it won't be so easy to knock the enemy out & (2) that if we
rely exclusively on violence & threats of violence against people & countries,
we will intensify the enemy's hatred & create more enemies. The goal of
eliminating all terrorism by eliminating all terrorists is a counterproductive
chimera. It has not worked for the Israelis & it won't work for us. (Consider
how young most terrorists are. How many of them remember the war of 1948?)
Bin Laden hates us partly because we had troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf
war. So we are proposing (I hear) to demand that Pakistan allow us to use it
as a staging area for strikes on Afghanistan. And Pakistan has nuclear
weapons! One might as well walk across a newly-painted floor to touch up a
spot on the other side. It is especially important to avoid this trap at a
time when we need every friend that we can get. I believe that an important
part of avoiding it is to try to understand and eliminate those causes of that
hatred that it is within our power to eliminate. Unfortunately, not all are
and never were, but some are & we need to understand what they are and work on
them. We have suddenly gone from feeling pretty invulnerable to feeling
vulnerable in the extreme. First it was the dot.com bubble burst. Now this
awful thing that dwarfs the worry about losing our jobs. We are still better
off as regards both economic & physical security & the posession of power than
the vast majority of mankind has been through all of history, and that will
continue to cause problems for us. That and a failure to pay sufficient
respect to the sensibilities of others. The point here is not to say shame on
us. The point here is to say we need to be careful whom we offend. It might
have been better to learn to live without Middle Eastern oil than to have
offended Bin Laden. This is not to defend him or his actions. No event that I
have lived through, including Pearl Harbor & the Cuban missle crisis, has made
me as sick at heart and frightened for the future as the attack on the Trade
towers, & I want Bin Laden & his networks found and eliminated. But This is an
area where it is especially hard to avoid taking counteproductive action. We
need to be cautious and understanding about the way we proceed.
David
I started this thread, hopefully this will end it but somehow I doubt it.
Fact: We were attacked.
Fact: We are in a state of war
Fact: The enemy doesn't have a specific geographic location we can bomb the
crap out of.
We as a nation must defend ourselves. If we do nothing about this because
"violence and hate beget violence and hate" then it's going to happen again
and again.
Violence and hate then are not the opertative words here. Justice and
prevention are.
There are many reasons that the Muslims hate the US. These reasons cannot
be easily summarized into a couple of emails. To write a history of Middle
East tensions and US involvement (or even exacerbation) in these tensions
would fill volumes.
But here we are; we've been attacked and if we don't do something about it
we will be attacked again and again. Even if we do something we will
probably be attacked again. We must therefore act with switftness to
eradicate (and continually prune) the organizations that exist for the
purpose of defeating the United States.
Enough said. Go get them!
Larry Diffey
There are many reasons that the Muslims hate the US.
s/muslims/most of the world/
we are the most hated country in the world. as you say, there are many
reasons. but, whatever they may be, if we bomb all of the planet that
hates us, there won't be enough left for us or anyone else to survive.
be pragmatic. all these frustrating emotions of fear and hate (and hate
is often the consequence of fear) should not lead us into precipitous
actions which have no long-run win. all the braggadocio can not obscure
our lack of success fighting determined guerrillas and terrorists. it's
not an easy problem. if it was, the world would be a much more peaceful
place already.
resist the cycle of violence and hate, if not for morality, then because
it is just plain not pragmatic. we do have norms for justice, prudence,
and process. if we do not follow them, then we have become the enemy
and the terrorists have won.
randy
Randy, I have to ask, how should we have conducted ourselves so that
Bin Laden and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad would not hate us and kill us?
A moment's thought will conclude that it is our existence and beliefs,
not our conduct, that they hate.
To quote (approximately) the great pragmatic philosopher Lazarus Long,
the only things to do with an enemy are make a friend of him or kill
him. Leaving him alive and still an enemy is foolish.
In the long run Islam will have to purge itself of its Crusaders, just
as other religions largely have. The war is not against Islam but
against a set of murderous fanatics, and it would be foolish indeed
NOT to hate them.
Barney Wolff
I've attached a small image for your web sites.
James
To quote (approximately) the great pragmatic philosopher Lazarus Long,
the only things to do with an enemy are make a friend of him or kill
him. Leaving him alive and still an enemy is foolish.
I don't know who said it but, to add
"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggy' while searching for a bigger
rock"
I believe Wynn Catlin is the author.
jas
> > To quote (approximately) the great pragmatic philosopher Lazarus Long,
> > the only things to do with an enemy are make a friend of him or kill
> > him. Leaving him alive and still an enemy is foolish.
Your enemy is never a villian in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may
offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate
-- and quickly.
Lazarus Long (RAH)
Remember, the rise of the fundamentalist Muslim "crusader" was a direct
reaction from the formerly "modern" _despots_ put in place, and maintained
in place, by the U.S. The Shah used his people as a playground for the
secret police. Dozens of other countires have been in the same position.
The one thing MANY of these now "fundamentalist" countries share in common
is a long history of extreme conditions which were put in place by, and
supported by, the "peace loving citizens of the United States". Bah.
The crusaders could never have come to power if we had acted like HUMAN
BEINGS. Or even less, if we had just practiced what we preached.
I, for once, agree. OTOH, there were Soviets which were in no way better
than US.
--vadim
> The crusaders could never have come to power if we had acted like HUMAN
> BEINGS. Or even less, if we had just practiced what we preached.
I, for once, agree. OTOH, there were Soviets which were in no way better
than US.
In fact, I would agree that the Soviets were, at least in most respects,
much worse than anything the U.S. has yet fallen to. Unfortunately, this
does not in any way excuse _our_ behaviour.
This is utterly irrelevant even if it were true. If you want to
argue that we *deserved* to have 5000 killed because we are an
evil nation and that we should simply accept future attacks as just
punishments, go ahead and offer yourself up in sacrificial atonement.
The sane rest of us will be concerned with the survival of ourselves,
our families, our nation and our civilization.
The rise of Hitler was arguably caused in large part by the overly
vicious punishment of Germany at Versailles. Did that change,
in any way whatsoever, how we had to, and eventually did, react?
I continue to hope for leadership from the decent majority of Islam
to take action to purge the indecent minority. The war is not against
all Islam or even against fundamentalist Islam, but against terrorist
Islam, and indeed against all terrorism. It must be prosecuted, whether
by Islam itself or by the rest of the world. A purely defensive strategy
has seldom succeeded in human history.
Barney Wolff