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1

> This issues has relevance to nanog--the veiled encouragement
> to break-ins I see here does result into network operational
> problems, more than most of the spams do.

You misunderstand my point. I do NOT encourage breakins, mailbombing,
SYN-flooding or any other kind of attacks as a solution to the SPAM
problem. It's not a technical problem so technical solutions won't cut

it.

You are correct that SPAM itself is not a technical problem.

But, mail-relaying *is* a technical problem -- and regardless of the the
legalities of UCE (aka SPAM), unauthorized use of other MTA's as relays
*is* network abuse.

This can be solved technically. Once the originating MTA must be the same
network as the originator of the SPAM, it will be much easier to deal with
the SPAM issue.

  Matt

2

This can be solved technically. Once the originating MTA must be the same
network as the originator of the SPAM, it will be much easier to deal with
the SPAM issue.

No it can't be solved technically, except in theory.

I love the blind belief in technology we see here, it would make an
inquisition era cleric weep with jealousy at such unflappable
demonstrations of faith in the face of arbitrary pain.

What has to be done is to get these third-party relay spammers
arrested, sued, and their heads hung out on poles for all to see and
give pause to others who might think of doing this.

To me, saying this can be solved technically is like saying that a
rash of window breakings in your neighborhood can be solved
"technically" -- everyone merely has to nail up plywood over all their
windows and voila', end of problem.

You want to see the arrogance of one particularly cancerous
third-party spammer who thinks they're absolutely right and what they
do is fine look at http://www.1-global.com/index.htm (Phoenix
Interactive.) I had one of these creeps on the telephone (they answer
their phone), he blandly offered to take our site off their list if we
like, as if he was finding me a good table near the band on a busy
night.

Not that they don't have a hint, their ads offer to bulk email
millions of messages and *they'll take the flames for you* (their
wording)! They just simply don't give a shit, to be blunt, stop them
with the law or equivalant or they'll just keep doing what they're
doing, there's always another site which doesn't have relaying
blocked, they'll find them as fast as they need, and they owe you and
I and everyone else absolutely nothing.

We have relaying blocked here but tonight they were pounding user
accounts thru some other victim relay site. So I blocked that mail
address. Twenty minutes later, boom, they're continuing with another
email address. Ok, I blocked that and now they seem to have gone away,
what fun, what a way to fill the moments between the womb and the
tomb!

And btw if anyone has any urge to give me a technical hint as a
response you really don't f***ing get it, save your typing.

3

From: "Matthew James Gering" <mgering@ricochet.net>
>This can be solved technically. Once the originating MTA must be the same
>network as the originator of the SPAM, it will be much easier to deal with
>the SPAM issue.

No it can't be solved technically, except in theory.

Not even in theory. There is no way for service providers or governments to
stop spam.

What has to be done is to get these third-party relay spammers
arrested, sued, and their heads hung out on poles for all to see and
give pause to others who might think of doing this.

Judges (in the US) would not do that because nobody dies or goes broke
as a result of spam. It's merely annoying. But even if US judges were
willing to nail spammers, the spammers would simply move out of their
jurisdictions. With strict anti-spam laws in place, what would you do if
you were being spammed from a site in Liberia? Same thing you do now.

To me, saying this can be solved technically is like saying that a
rash of window breakings in your neighborhood can be solved
"technically" -- everyone merely has to nail up plywood over all their
windows and voila', end of problem.

Well, your options are limited. You can do technical things because that's
within your power. But the only laws that will affect spam, are the
laws of economics.

Bill

4

And then in the US, we would get into first amendment issues, questions
about what is considered spam, and of course, my favorite and yours, how
to figure out how much money was lost from this spam.

You just can't do it. Once again I say, if governments start putting their
noses in places they don't, they are going to loose. Heck, can we consider
Internet users a race? Hey, maybe we can apply for Affirmative Action (US)
and collect benefits because we are a minority.

There are simply too many Internet users in too many countries which don't
agree on policy to regulate anything effectively. And are you REALLY ready
to give the government access to your routers so they can monitor traffic?

I don't think so.

Jordan

5

> What has to be done is to get these third-party relay spammers

> > arrested, sued, and their heads hung out on poles for all to see and
> > give pause to others who might think of doing this.
>
> Judges (in the US) would not do that because nobody dies or goes broke
> as a result of spam. It's merely annoying. But even if US judges were

Nobody dies or goes broke if I play a stereo at full volume outside
your bedroom window...

Besides, I think we are getting closer and closer to people going
broke over spam as it chases potential customers away. It's kind of
like having to let people who fart a lot or won't bathe eat in your
restaurant (or maybe a closer analogy is people who insist on throwing
food around the room, I mean, it's not deadly, merely annoying...)

> willing to nail spammers, the spammers would simply move out of their
> jurisdictions. With strict anti-spam laws in place, what would you do if
> you were being spammed from a site in Liberia? Same thing you do now.

I'd lobby to have Liberia's net link cut off if they can't deal with
it. Networking is a two-way street.

> > To me, saying this can be solved technically is like saying that a
> > rash of window breakings in your neighborhood can be solved
> > "technically" -- everyone merely has to nail up plywood over all their
> > windows and voila', end of problem.
>
> Well, your options are limited. You can do technical things because that's
> within your power. But the only laws that will affect spam, are the
> laws of economics.

Well, thank you for your useless legal advice but I assure you my
attorneys feel otherwise and I'm currently well into pursuing having
two of them arrested (some do make serious mistakes.)

You'd've made a good serf, Becker.