vonage routing issues

Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org> 3/4/05 1:17:11 PM >>>

Anyone else having reachability issues with Vonage? The past two

days,

about this time (~2pm), we've been unable to reach www.vonage.com and
customers with vonage phones have lost their service.

My traces to them end with:

13. 64.200.88.173 0% 8 8 32 31

33 42

14. nycmny2wcx2-pos1-0-oc192.wcg.net 0% 8 8 37 37

70 176

15. ???

Interesting. I can't get to them, either. A trace from my site to
theirs (via Sprint) ends here:

border23.ge2-0-bbnet1.nyc.pnap.net (209.191.128.92) [AS 10910]

John

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/70081/us-slaps-fine-on-company-blocking-voip.html

I don't speak for BroadVoice, but this seams to be to be stupid. Why
should the government get involved in ISPs blocking ports? If customers
don't like it, go to a new provider, what country is this??

Frankly, I don't see the point, any provider that requires 5060 or any
other port to offer VoIP services deserves to be shutoff by networks
blocking those ports. It is just to easy to talk to CPE on any port.

<>

Nathan Stratton BroadVoice, Inc.
nathan at robotics.net Talk IS Cheap
http://www.robotics.net http://www.broadvoice.com

Fwiw, my trace ends at border23.ge2-0-bbnet1.nyc.pnap.net [209.191.128.92] as well, but I -can- browse to the site with IE.

--Michael

Seems to me that said company “BroadVoice?” was attempting to prevent the use of VoIP in an effort to prevent competition
with it’s current phone customers. It’s kind of a tough issue to deal with, if you think about it.

There are two sides to the issue:

1.) FCC doesn’t want companies preventing other companies from competing.
2.) On the other hand, how do you tell a company what services it can or can’t block?

The fact is, the company was preventing it’s users from using technology offered by said company’s competitors.
There are parts of this country from which you don’t have “other isp” options.

You mentioned something about ports. I highly doubt that BroadVoice used ports to deny the service.
I’m sure the blocks were at least a little bit more complicated than just blocking out ports.

It’s a very interesting issue. For once, I tend to agree with the FCC on this one.

Regards,

Tim Rainier

Nathan Allen Stratton nathan@robotics.net
Sent by: owner-nanog@merit.edu

03/04/2005 03:50 PM

To
nanog@nanog.org

cc

Subject
US slaps fine on company blocking VoIP

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/70081/us-slaps-fine-on-company-blocking-voip.html

I don't speak for BroadVoice, but this seams to be to be stupid. Why
should the government get involved in ISPs blocking ports? If customers
don't like it, go to a new provider, what country is this??

Frankly, I don't see the point, any provider that requires 5060 or any
other port to offer VoIP services deserves to be shutoff by networks
blocking those ports. It is just to easy to talk to CPE on any port.

><>
Nathan Stratton BroadVoice, Inc.
nathan at robotics.net Talk IS Cheap
http://www.robotics.net http://www.broadvoice.com

It's worth pointing out that the companies in the article, are Vonage and
Nuvia - not BroadVoice.

- d.

I don't speak for BroadVoice, but this seams to be to be stupid. Why
should the government get involved in ISPs blocking ports? If customers
don't like it, go to a new provider, what country is this??

  I'm curious how you'd feel if your local telephone company started
preventing you from calling its competitors. How about if you suddenly
discover your car won't drive you to a competitor's dealership due to a
lockout included by the manufacturer (that you neither knew about nor agreed
to when you bought it).

  It is only in the Internet business and the software business that a
company can sell you a product with no representations that it will actually
do anything and with you having essentially no recourse if it doesn't meet
your expectations. If I pay for Internet access, I expect to get it. And if
you're not actually providing Internet access, don't clima to.

  The Internet is not ports, it's not machines, it's not protocols. We could
change all that and it could still be the Internet. The Internet is a
philosophy, and the results of that philosophy. It's about making a good
faith best effort to connect to and exchange information with anyone else
who makes a similar effort.

  Let's not lose sight of the big picture. I sympathize with the "if you
don't like it go elsewhere" view, but I also believe that people should
provide the service they agreed to be provide, and when they fail to do so
without justification, they should be penalized for their fraud.

  DS

At the root of it, it's deliberate anti-competitive behavior, and that's what the fine is for. I'm generally fine to have the government stay out of the internet as much as possible, but this move was the correct one, as it was on behalf of the end consumer. It's not the choice of port blocking that matters, it's the intent.

I'm a Vonage customer myself, because I like the flexibility and control it provides me over my phone service. I'm also a Cox broadband customer. With Cox being a telephone provider, the instant they decide to begin filtering VOIP in order to reduce competition for their product, you can bet I'm going to voting with my dollar.

Any CPE based customer is paying for a connection to the Internet. Unless they're subscribing to a specifically limited or structured access service (like AOL, for example), they have a reasonable expectation to use the service to do.. customer-like things. Knowingly subscribing to a service that will allow me to connect, outbound only, to tcp ports 80 and 443, with all mail going to a specific MTA, I would not reasonably expect to be utilizing that style of service for VOIP, and that would be fine. This is not, however, the style of service I'm paying for, and far less than my provider has already agreed to provide me with.

This extends all the way to transit peering agreements, as well. I don't recall ever seeing one that says "We agree to transit all traffic except VOIP." What would be the point? I wouldn't agree to buy incomplete transit any more than I'd try to sell it.

To have a company that also provides telephone service to specifically block a competiting service, which customers are paying them to transit, is a breach of contract at best, and outright criminal at worst.

- billn

Seems to me that said company "BroadVoice?" was attempting to prevent the
use of VoIP in an effort to prevent competition
with it's current phone customers. It's kind of a tough issue to deal
with, if you think about it.

Hold, BroadVoice is a VoIP service provider I work for, I was just saying
I am speaking as Nathan, not as BroadVoice.

There are two sides to the issue:

1.) FCC doesn't want companies preventing other companies from competing.
2.) On the other hand, how do you tell a company what services it can or
can't block?

The fact is, the company was preventing it's users from using technology
offered by said company's competitors.

No, they are just preventing companies that are using port X, most
providers have figured out how to make VoIP work on any port.

-Nathan

It's a portable scenario, and it doesn't matter which port you block.

Flip it around:
HTTP can transit on any port. Block port 80 and see how long you last.

Here's another take on it. Don't think of this in terms of tracing packet routes. Trace the path of SLAs, AUPs, and peering agreements between Vonage and those blocked customers.

Madison River buys transit from someone. At some point, their contractual obligations for that peering arrangement are passing on elements of other peering agreements, which in turn pass on still more. This is the essential layer of cooperation and good faith that make the internet work.

On the other end, Vonage, or any Voip provider, for that matter, has purchased peering and transit with the reasonable expectation that they can pass end-to-end traffic, unfiltered. It would not be entirely unreasonable to see a peering agreement terminated for this behavior. I am not a lawyer, and I am not privy to the details of the peering agreements for the networks between Vonage and their end customers, but it's their faith in the basic nature of peering agreements that make their entire business model viable.

- billn

Your local telephone company is a regulated entity. It's required to
complete your calls regardless of which other carrier they terminate
on.

Vonage has fought tooth and nail to *not* be a regulated entity. But
now it's turning around and complaining that other non-regulated
entities are employing the same freedom from regulation that Vonage
enjoys in a way that Vonage finds inconvenient.

Meanwhile, Vonage has been pretty much entirely out of service for
the entirety of this afternoon, for all subscribers. Something very
similar happened yesterday. If Vonage were a regulated telephone
carrier, it would be subject to millions of dollars of fines --
essentially, the regulatory regime would force it to give back to
its customers the money it will doubtless not give back to them of
its own good will (it would be suicidally stupid business practice
to give it back unless they ask, after all, and most won't ask).

But Vonage has used a complaisant FCC as a stick to beat another
non-regulated entity with in order to force it to behave the way
Vonage wants.

This is all very effective but it does stink to high heaven. We
can argue about whether it is best to have telecom regulation or
not have telecom regulation, but "exactly as much regulation as
Vonage happens to want, where and when Vonage happens to want it"
is certainly neither equitable nor good.

Thor

So who's going to be the IP cop that decided which actions are
anti-competitive and which actions are 'customer care'?

How many service providers oversubscribe their internet feed. Just because
the advertisement says 384k upstream and 2Mbps downstream doesn't mean
this is a guaranteed rate available 24x7 to any destination. In most cases
there is some bandwidth management box somewhere that provides a fair
share of bandwidth to all of the ISPs customers. I am really curious at
which point shaping of traffic is viewed as anti-competitive...

Adi

There's another factor here, which is that the gov't wants to encourage
technological innovation and advancement for numerous and sundry reasons
(many of them even good).

Generally speaking, it's right to favor deployment and growth of new
technologies and markets over old ones. All other things being equal
(which they never are), tilting the hand towards VoIP providers is the
right call.

It's too early in the technology life-cycle for them to be treated that
way. I mean, you can get a phone number anywhere the service provider has
a pop, and if you want to feed that into existing 911 service systems
you've got a lot of mapping issues to deal with, probably to the point
where it's not economically feasible, meaning no deployment. Heck, how
long did it take for cellular 911 to work right, and now we're demanding
the same level of service from a newbie market like VoIP right away?

The time will come soon enough where the market will be stable enough for
all of us to mandate certain requirements, and we'll get all the
regulation we need then. In the meantime, allowing the technology to
develop is the best strategy.

Bill Nash wrote:

At the root of it, it's deliberate anti-competitive behavior, and that's
what the fine is for. I'm generally fine to have the government stay out
of the internet as much as possible, but this move was the correct one,
as it was on behalf of the end consumer. It's not the choice of port
blocking that matters, it's the intent.

Wait a minute, since when is the Internet service I provide regulated by
ANY entity? It's not, therefore I can run the network any way I see
fit. If customers don't like it, they can choose another ISP; if they
can't choose another ISP, not my problem, I'm not a regulated entity,
you get my service or none at all.

While I don't run my network with that attitude, I certainlly have the
right to.

Lets take port blocking out of this. Lets say I'm an ISP that offers
digital phone service to my customers. Of course I'm going to provide
my customers with the best voice service possible, which means QoS for
my voice customers. If Vonages service is basically unsable on my
network due to oversubscription/latency/packetloss on some legs/remotes
am I obligated now to provide voice quality? No, I'm not. My voice
works because my customers pay me for that, is that anti-competitive?
That's intentional as well...

Nobody says I have to carry Vonage traffic so long as I do not violate
any SLA's with the customers I provide service for. Regardless if it's
not competitive, if you want to really get technical and bring in
regulation and law like the telcos do, Vonage should be paying ISP's to
transport and terminate their voice customers traffic.

Seems that Vonage wants to have their cake and eat it to when it comes
to regulation...

Vonage has fought tooth and nail to *not* be a regulated entity.

It's too early in the technology life-cycle for them to be treated that
way. I mean, you can get a phone number anywhere the service provider has
a pop, and if you want to feed that into existing 911 service systems
you've got a lot of mapping issues to deal with, probably to the point
where it's not economically feasible

Packet8 offers E-911 on their VoIP product right now, for a $1.50/mo
surcharge which is not out of line with the POTS E-911 charge. You
have to tell them where you live, and your phone number has to be
local to your location. Looks pretty feasible to me.

First the VoIP crowd says that it's an unstoppable juggernaut with
such compelling technical and economic advantages that it will
inevitably leave all of that old fashioned POTS telephony as road
kill.

Then in the next breath they're telling us that VoIP is such a frail,
delicate hothouse flower that the merest chilly breath of regulation
or E911 or USF or any of the other costs that real phones are subject
to would make it crumple and die on the vine.

I realize that if I were in the VoIP business, I'd be spouting that
nonsense, too. What I don't undertand is why everyone else seems to
believe it. VoIP is mostly a regulatory arbitrage play, not a
technological miracle.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, Mayor
"More Wiener schnitzel, please", said Tom, revealingly.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks for proving my point.

Regulating as-is behavior is not feasible, ergo regulation means loss of
features or overhauled network(s), which is a bit unreasonable given where
we are in the lifecycle.

If Pepsi put a chain-link fence up around every Coca-Cola vending machine
in your city, do you think the authorities would do something about it?

Give me a break, this is totally different. This ISP is not blocking ports
on other ISPs networks, they are choosing what they allow on their network
or not. Just like other networks have done with many other things.

Worse, in this case, there's laws that say you MUST be able to get
diet soda (911 calls) at all times.

Hhehe, actually in this case there are NOT laws that say you must be able
to reach 911 at all times. Sure their are people that are trying to make
it that way and as a VoIP provider we are trying to get as close to
lifeline as we can, but frankly we don't ship a UPS with every ATA. We
don't protect the last line IP network. So I am sorry, no we can't offer
911 calls to our customers at all times. In fact because of the lame way
current providers are doing 911 (hading calls to PSAP administration
lines) BroadVoice does not offer 911 at all yet. I would rather NOT offer
it and tell users to have a way to call 911 via CELL or PSTN then to have
them count on me getting them to a PSAP with the current options.

<>

Nathan Stratton BroadVoice, Inc.
nathan at robotics.net Talk IS Cheap
http://www.robotics.net http://www.broadvoice.com

You do? Since when do you (or any ISP, which is fundamentally a corporation
like any other) have an exemption to antitrust, fair competition, and every
other law regulating business practices?

Just because you don't have a regulator setting prices and/or quality
standards for your product, like you have in all kinds of sectors (ranging
from electricity to automobiles to just about everything), does not mean you
are free to run your business "any way you see fit".

While you're at it, why not say that since you're an unregulated business
that can "run your network any way [you] like", you can prioritize traffic
from customers of one ethnic group rather than another? In most sane
jurisdictions, a court would tell you that everybody using your "Whatever"
service and paying you $Y/month for it must get the same quality of service
whether they have black or white skin.

Would you scream on NANOG about that, too, and claim that your right to run
your network any way you see fit is denied?

And guess what, to get back to this issue? Ask an antitrust lawyer. If
company A has a quasi-monopoly (or is dominant) in product X, and company A
and B both provide product Y, which requires product X (at least for company
B's product Y to work), and company A deliberately acts to make sure that
company B's product Y cannot work with the product X from company A, they're
eventually going to get in trouble. That's the situation here. You need IP
transit to do VoIP. Some company with a dominant position in IP transit that
also provides phone service is preventing somebody else's VoIP service from
working with their IP transit to product their own phone service business.
That, under most reasonable fair competition statutes, would be prohibited.
"Regulated" industry or not.

Vivien
(as always, speaking for myself, not any organizations that may appear in
the headers)

[...]

In fact because of the lame way current providers are doing 911
(hading calls to PSAP administration lines) BroadVoice does not
offer 911 at all yet. I would rather NOT offer it and tell users to
have a way to call 911 via CELL or PSTN then to have them count on
me getting them to a PSAP with the current options.

I'd like extend a public "thank you" for that. It's a real shame more
residential providers don't follow suit, given the brokenness (and
false sense of security) of their existing implementations.

-a

Bill Nash wrote:

At the root of it, it's deliberate anti-competitive behavior, and that's
what the fine is for. I'm generally fine to have the government stay out
of the internet as much as possible, but this move was the correct one,
as it was on behalf of the end consumer. It's not the choice of port
blocking that matters, it's the intent.

Wait a minute, since when is the Internet service I provide regulated by
ANY entity? It's not, therefore I can run the network any way I see

Since you applied for a license to operate a business in your city/county/state.

fit. If customers don't like it, they can choose another ISP; if they
can't choose another ISP, not my problem, I'm not a regulated entity,
you get my service or none at all.

Unregulated does not mean unencumbered by legal responsibilities. What would your take on a local competitor be, if they began filtering all traffic to your network when they happen to control all long haul egress? It's their network, they can do it, right? You don't get a say, do you? They're just leveraging their control of local peering to deliberately obstruct your ability to do business. That's legal, right?

Lets take port blocking out of this. Lets say I'm an ISP that offers
digital phone service to my customers. Of course I'm going to provide
my customers with the best voice service possible, which means QoS for
my voice customers. If Vonages service is basically unsable on my
network due to oversubscription/latency/packetloss on some legs/remotes
am I obligated now to provide voice quality? No, I'm not. My voice
works because my customers pay me for that, is that anti-competitive?
That's intentional as well...

If VOIP doesn't run on your network because you've oversold your capacity, no amount of QoS is going to put the quality back into your service. People will find better ISPs. If you deliberately set QoS to favor your services over a competitor, whom your customers are also paying for service, you'll be staring down prosecutors, at some point. It's anti-competitive behavior, as you're taking deliberate actions to degrade the service of a competitor, simply because you can.

Your obligation to your customers is to provide the service they're paying for. If they buy voice, you give them voice. If they buy packets, you give them packets. The first time a customer pipes up and says his competitive-VOIP service functions worse than his neighbor's, who's buying from you, it's absolutely in your best interests to pay attention to it, because you don't want your first hint about it to be from a state or federal investigator.

Nobody says I have to carry Vonage traffic so long as I do not violate
any SLA's with the customers I provide service for. Regardless if it's
not competitive, if you want to really get technical and bring in
regulation and law like the telcos do, Vonage should be paying ISP's to
transport and terminate their voice customers traffic.

Vonage DOES pay ISPs to transport their traffic. They're paying their direct peers for it, or at the barest minimum, the ISPs they purchase connectivity from, who are in turn paying, or being paid by, THEIR peers, ad infinitum, through transit agreements. Do you see my point yet?

Seems that Vonage wants to have their cake and eat it to when it comes
to regulation...

Regulation doesn't even need to enter into this. The more peers you have, the less freedom you have to dictate what can and can't happen on your network, because you have a contractual obligation to live up to those agreements. In turn, those same obligations are passed on, from peer to peer to peer, until even Kevin Bacon gets the point: you can't just selectively refuse to transit traffic because a specific port number offends you.

Note: I am not a lawyer. It's entirely possible I'm wrong. Please correct me, if so.

To supply some legal context to this discussion, consider the rise of the CLEC, and the practices engaged by the incumbent telco's to restrict or inhibit market entry. Covad's struggles with Bell South. Caltech and Pacbell. Going back farther, MCI and AT&T's local loop squabbles.

There's a lot of text in the Telecommunications Act of 1996 that's relevent here, especially with regard to the provision of voice services, and the requirement of competitors to facilitate unhindered delivery of service to the consumer. (Sec 251, Interconnection)

This does open up avenues for many other debates, including treatment of any given ISPs facilities as local loop, with respect to VOIP termination, and the obligations of ISPs to provide QoS, technical or otherwise, to VOIP traffic.

- billn