Vancouver IXP - VanTX - BCNet

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1

As you may know CIRA has been working with groups across Canada to
establish new IXPs.

wow! i thought there were a lot of ixps, torix, vantx, ...

are these open, neutral, ixps, a la six etc? or big players trying to
save the internet from itself?

would some of the *local* providers in the areas who actually use the
cira ixen care to report on the experience?

When we started this work, we didn't know that Vancouver already had
an IXP

in depth research, eh?

We and BCNet are planning a town hall style meeting in late September,
tentatively September 26, to talk about the IXP needs of the Vancouver
area.

why are all my alarms going off?

randy

2

Hi Randy,

As you may know CIRA has been working with groups across Canada to
establish new IXPs.

wow! i thought there were a lot of ixps, torix, vantx, ...

The TorIX has been the most significant exchange point with growth and traffic for some years. I hear the QIX in Montréal (pre-CIRA) was active, but I know less about that one since I've never had occasion to connect and use it. Other exchange points have existed (or still exist) in Halifax, London, Edmonton and Ottawa but have struggled to attract interest despite enthusiastic and well-meaning activism on the part of individuals.

I always had the impression that the BCIX in Vancouver was mainly a cooperative transit purchasing arrangement between academic institutions, and that all commercial peering on the west coast of Canada really took place in Seattle. Again, I have no direct experience however.

What CIRA is doing is providing support in the areas where previous efforts have struggled, providing hardware, accounts payable, legal, help with incorporation and forming sensible bylaws and stimulating local discussion and interest. My perspective is that they have done a great job in Calgary and Montréal. It sounds like the approach in Vancouver (engage with existing efforts, see where CIRA can help) is following the same path.

are these open, neutral, ixps, a la six etc? or big players trying to
save the internet from itself?

I think they are as open and neutral as the local ISP communities want, and that CIRA is not dictating terms but rather enabling locals to do what they think is best for themselves. Open, Neutral, à la SIX (et à la TorIX) is what people seem to want.

I think the work CIRA is doing here is sensible, pragmatic, sensitive and useful. A good use of my .CA domain registration fees. It'd be nice to hear more about their experiences in Phoenix, if there is a suitable slot available on the programme.

Joe

3

are these open, neutral, ixps, a la six etc? or big players trying to
save the internet from itself?

would some of the *local* providers in the areas who actually use the
cira ixen care to report on the experience?

ok, i have heard privately from folk who i respect. cira seems to be on
the up and up and doing good professional work.

randy

4

haha. yes, because Canadians are normally so sinister and nefarious...

5

Hey, we're nefarious. Our plan to take control the world supply of poutine is well under way!

First, delicious and fattening food. Next: the world! *cue evil laugh*

- Pete

6

they do seem to protest a lot... based on what i see on the news:
  <http://straight2vhs.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html>

7

US Senator Ted Cruz just renounced his Canadian (dual w/ US)
citizenship.

I'm just saying.

My take on Canada? Quiet...too quiet...

8

US Senator Ted Cruz just renounced his Canadian (dual w/ US)
citizenship.

I'm just saying.

My take on Canada? Quiet...too quiet...

So we can count him with the likes of Conrad Black? :smiley:

9

> As you may know CIRA has been working with groups across Canada to
> establish new IXPs.

wow! i thought there were a lot of ixps, torix, vantx, ...

Canada is geographically enormous. Long-haul transit is therefore costly,
and controlled by few big players. Not good for local ISPs.

You named 2 IXPs, and only got one right. A year ago, there were two
active: TORIX in Toronto, and OTTIX in Ottawa. Ottawa is too close to
Toronto to have an impact, so OTTIX has remained small. Having only 2 open
IXPs, 400 km apart in a country 5000 km wide is not good enough.

Since then, QIX in Montreal has opened up from a research-only IXP, to a
neutral peering facility. MBIX in Winnipeg has started, and YYCIX in
Calgary is up and running as well. Vancouver is still lacking.

are these open, neutral, ixps, a la six etc? or big players trying to

save the internet from itself?

I can speak for MBIX in Winnipeg, I'm part of the group working to get it
fully operational.

We are open, neutral. Any AS can become a member, and we are run openly by
a board, elected by the members of the exchange.

We have route servers, and direct peering is permitted as well. Costs are
yearly, per-member, and low: $1200/yr. CIRA's donations have been pivotal
in kickstarting this exchange with low cash costs. A couple of local ISPs
have also donated to got this project started.

Currently, the aforementioned established big players are not at all
interested in our exchange, they don't talk to us. Only exception is
Hurricane Electric, who recently joined, dropping wholesale bandwidth costs
in Winnipeg *dramatically*.

would some of the *local* providers in the areas who actually use the

cira ixen care to report on the experience?

I don't count as an operator, but so far, the connected members are
learning much more about BGP and traffic flows, and interconnecting in ways
never before possible in Winnipeg.

BTW, in Winnipeg we still have the problem of cross-continent traffic paths
to send data across the street. Worst case is something like this:
Winnipeg--Chicago--Toronto--Vancouver--Calgary--Winnipeg. That's a 15,000
km round trip. MBIX can help with that.

Our website for the curious:http://www.mbix.ca/

10

The old generation QIX (in Montreal) has been around a long time as an IXP where commercial players have been present. It was managed and operated by RISQ (a research network) but most of the members were commercial.

The new generation of QIX is managed much like TorIX and continues to be operated by RISQ. There really isn't much new about the QIX other than how it is managed. It has always welcomed commercial players.

In Winnipeg, isn't there also the WPGIX? Do you have two competing IXPs in Winnipeg?

11

There are nominally competing efforts in Winnipeg (MBIX and WPGIX), Calgary (YYCIX and AlbertaIX), Montreal (QIX and Peer1), Vancouver (BCIX and Peer1), and even Toronto (TorIX, Peer1, CANIX, and IIX).

I would not characterize more than one of those in each city as a going concern, however.

https://pch.net/ixpdir

                                -Bill

12

The main reason we are collecting feedback for Vancouver is that both VANTX and PIX are not member based IXP organizations, VANTX is owned and operated by BCnet, a R&E organization, and PIX is owned and operated by Peer1.

We heard from a few people in Vancouver that they would like to have a true open, neutral and member based IXP, the idea for the town hall meeting is to build the community around a Vancouver IXP. BCnet has a good story to tell about VANTX, community support and IXPs across the province.

If you care about Vancouver, then let us know. I'll see what I can do about the poutine :slight_smile:

13

I think CANIX in Toronto has been dead for years. I used to operate the switch for it in my days at UUNET in the 90s.

In Montreal, is anyone at the Peer1 exchange other than Peer1?

14

I think CANIX in Toronto has been dead for years. I used to operate the switch for it in my days at UUNET in the 90s.

Yes, very dead.

In Montreal, is anyone at the Peer1 exchange other than Peer1?

Peer1 exchanges are only open to Peer1 customers, I believe. At least,
that's how it worked in Toronto the last time I looked.

Joe

15

In Montreal, is anyone at the Peer1 exchange other than Peer1?

Peer1 exchanges are only open to Peer1 customers, I believe. At least,
that's how it worked in Toronto the last time I looked.

that is not an exchange. most isps have switches in their transit
infrastructure.

randy

16

You named 2 IXPs, and only got one right. A year ago, there were two
active: TORIX in Toronto, and OTTIX in Ottawa. Ottawa is too close to
Toronto to have an impact, so OTTIX has remained small. Having only 2 open

That's not entirely accurate.

The fact is the Ottawa market - as well as the Eastern Ontario market, had a large number of very small ISPs in the area a decade ago. So OttIX had many ISPs be litle traffic. After a major market conolidation (buyouts,m mergers, etc) the number of peers declined quite a bit - but the traffic increased.

In the meantime, within the province of Ontario, LANX costs became effectively the same (to us) to go from one end of the city to the other as the cost to go between cities. Even at the $dayjob, we took advantage of this and simply dragged another LANX over to TorIX.
Heck, even OttIX had a POP at 151 Fron in Toronto which saw enormous growth.

So in that sense, OttIX achieved one of its primary objectives and that was to drive transit costs down in what is effectively a one-company town.

IXPs, 400 km apart in a country 5000 km wide is not good enough.

5000km in length by 100Km in width as most of the population lives within 100Km of the Canada-US border, but yes, it's a big country.

Since then, QIX in Montreal has opened up from a research-only IXP, to a
neutral peering facility. MBIX in Winnipeg has started, and YYCIX in
Calgary is up and running as well. Vancouver is still lacking.

BCNet would beg to differ. :slight_smile:

There's also VicTX in Victoria run by BCNet. (Granted, some might simply say those are nothing more than BCNet aggregation hubs - but judge for yourselves please.)

Currently, the aforementioned established big players are not at all
interested in our exchange, they don't talk to us. Only exception is
Hurricane Electric, who recently joined, dropping wholesale bandwidth costs
in Winnipeg *dramatically*.

IXPs in Canada have been particularly effective in doing this, especially in Ottawa where in 2003 it was something like $550 per megabit/month. One of the OttIX members (IGS) offered $200 and well, a number of OttIX peers went to town with that. The rate grudgingly dropped to $333 by 2006 until $MGMT allowed me to break out in other places to leverage even lower pricing. As of 2011 the best price I could get here was $90 but we already got out of Dodge by then.

All to say the effects of an IXP in a certain locale were positive for the end-consumers (ISPs mainly) of transit.

BTW, in Winnipeg we still have the problem of cross-continent traffic paths
to send data across the street. Worst case is something like this:
Winnipeg--Chicago--Toronto--Vancouver--Calgary--Winnipeg. That's a 15,000
km round trip. MBIX can help with that.

For a good view of the Canadian perspective on those and more, see:

   http://www.ixmaps.ca/index.php

We've contributed a lot of traceroutes, ditto via $dayjob given the diverse footprint of the network (national research backbone - not CANARIE's though) just to see how our traffic runs about the country as well as outside. Some surprises there. (I think CIRA funded that one as well.)

wfms

17

Correct. The ones in black are exchanges, the ones in gray are things that someone asserted to have been exchanges, or asserted will be exchanges.

https://pch.net/ixpdir

North America Canada (6) Calgary Calgary Internet Exchange 5 2013
      Montreal Quebec Internet Exchange 8 Jan 2013
      Ottawa Ottawa Internet Exchange 13 432M 10 Apr 2001
      Toronto Toronto Internet Exchange 156 112G 1998
      Winnipeg Manitoba Internet Exchange 8 126M 29 Jul 2013
      Winnipeg Winnipeg Internet Exchange 5 May 2013
      Calgary AlbertaIX
      Edmonton Edmonton Internet Exchange
      Montreal Peer1 Internet Exchange - Montreal 2010
      Montreal Quebec Internet Exchange/RISQ
      Toronto CANIX
      Toronto Greater Toronto International Internet Exchange Jun 2011
      Toronto Peer1 Internet Exchange - Toronto 2008
      Vancouver British Columbia Internet Exchange
      Vancouver Peer1 Internet Exchange - Vancouver 2008
      Victoria Victoria Transit Exchange

                                -Bill

18

Correct. The ones in black are exchanges, the ones in gray are things
that someone asserted to have been exchanges, or asserted will be
exchanges.

glad it's all so black and white, well grey. :slight_smile:

as i use an old fashioned mail reader, it's all
    (set-foreground-color "navajo white")
to me.

but how do you represent seattle colonolizing bc?

randy

19

but how do you represent seattle colonolizing bc?

"keep your potatoes out of my pig."

20

+1

The Peer1 setups remind me very much of what Group Telecom (defunct Canadian backbone provider) did in the very late 90's and the very early part of the last decade. They had them in nearly every city they had their facilities, but the GT IXPs never caught on ($$$ to get inside the facility and they played hard ball against incumbant access effectively making them closed unless direct GT customers.)

wfms