Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and
to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of
thing just not exist?
Right now we've got a APC Symmetra UPS at 12kva, with no generator. The UPS
keeps us running for about 45 minutes, which just isn't enough time. I
called APC, but they didn't seem to have any type of automatic solution.
Their method is to hook it up to a switch, and manually change the feed to
the UPS from the building power to the generator power and back, but it sure
would be nice to have something more automated (to save me from running like
a madman when the UPS page wakes me up at 4am).
I'd be very grateful to hear of any solutions that you guys have come up
with in this arena. Also, any recommendations for generators? I'm not
looking for something huge, just something that can be mounted on a roof.
If I have to pour diesel into it every couple hours, that's fine too.
Thanks in advance,
Brian
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and
to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of
thing just not exist?
Find somebody with Internet Access and a "browser--go to Google.com,
enter "generator backup ups" in the box.
Find things like:
"http://www.standbygeneratorsystems.com/standbyportable_ad/"
I don;t know anything about that company--personally I'd look to
see if Teledyne Inet was still in business.
Telephone companies and such have been doing that for several
years now.
I think you are looking at it wrong, you need an Automatic Transfer Switch.
It connects to both commercial power and your generator, and provides a feed
into your panels. Your UPS's sit in front of the ATS, and provide clean
power. If/When you loose commercial power, the ATS will detect this and
power on the generator, after a configurable amount of time it will switch to
generator power, until commercial power comes back and is stable for X amount
of time.
Hope that helps,
-Patrick
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and
to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of
thing just not exist?
What Patrick said.
But, on a minor note that probably won't affect your Symmetra but I'm posting in case anyone else here can shed light on.... we had a power event this AM. The transfer switch did it's magic and all was good... Except for two new APC1400's- they failed once the batteries drained. I triple-checked that they were on the right panel, played with sensitivity, even tried daisy-chaining one off a good working 2200. Nothing I did would convince the two 1400s they had power. Once the house power was restored they came back to life and look normal. I later learned that two of our colo customers with APC1400s had the same problem 
Other models (even a couple non-essential lower-end, dumb APC 450s and 650s) didn't blink at the generator power.
Mike
Check generator frequency. If it has a mechanical governor, you may
need to replace it with electronic.
Brian,
The way the generators usually are set up is an transfer switch at the
input of the UPS. When commercial power is lost the ATS signals the
Genset to start and once the input voltage stablizes the UPS shuts down.
This scenario assumes the use of a line interactive UPS which includes the
UPS you describe. In the case of a online the UPS "sees" that
line power has been restored.
When power is restored the ATS switches back to commercial power and
signals the generator to shut down. The ATS usually "exercises" the
generator as well on a set schedule as well.
My advice is to contact a local electrician who specializes in generator
installations as local codes define what you are allowed to do.
BTW APC has an environmental monitor card with relay outputs which can
be used to start a compatible generator. once again you need to talk to
your local electrician.
Scott C. McGrath
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and
to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of
thing just not exist?
What Patrick said.
An additional note: some of the small to mid-sized propane/natural gas units come as packaged systems with a generator and transfer switch. These can be a good value and work well too. Do some shopping.
But, on a minor note that probably won't affect your Symmetra but I'm posting in case anyone else here can shed light on.... we had a power event this AM. The transfer switch did it's magic and all was good... Except for two new APC1400's- they failed once the batteries drained. I triple-checked that they were on the right panel, played with sensitivity, even tried daisy-chaining one off a good working 2200. Nothing I did would convince the two 1400s they had power. Once the house power was restored they came back to life and look normal. I later learned that two of our colo customers with APC1400s had the same problem Other models (even a couple non-essential lower-end, dumb APC 450s and 650s) didn't blink at the generator power.
The Winco 8KW unit I use to protect my home is designed to output 62.5Hz when unloaded, so that motor starts (well, furnace) don't pull it below 60Hz. Devices all seem quite happy with this setup. We use a bunch of APC SmartUPS units because these have sensitivity adjustments. We need to knock them back to the medium sensitivity or they freak out with the 62Hz, and keep switching on and off battery. We find the lower-end units (BackUps) won't work at all, since they just freak.
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
> Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and
> to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of
> thing just not exist?
What Patrick said.
But, on a minor note that probably won't affect your Symmetra but I'm
posting in case anyone else here can shed light on.... we had a power
event this AM. The transfer switch did it's magic and all was good...
Except for two new APC1400's- they failed once the batteries drained. I
triple-checked that they were on the right panel, played with
sensitivity, even tried daisy-chaining one off a good working 2200.
Nothing I did would convince the two 1400s they had power. Once the
house power was restored they came back to life and look normal. I later
learned that two of our colo customers with APC1400s had the same
problem Other models (even a couple non-essential lower-end, dumb APC
450s and 650s) didn't blink at the generator power.
It's possible that the generatar is running to fast or slow and the
frequency is out of range for the ups... I had this happen in Ghana,
generator was producing 47.5hz, opened the throttle and everything was
fine.
The obvious caveat being that natural gas is one of those fuel sources
often cut by public safety officials depending on circumstances.
I keep sufficient propane on-site for a week of operation of my genset at home. Certainly there are concerns with using street gas, but these can be overcome.
Gas does have significant advantages over diesel in terms of fuel not getting contaminated. For smaller sites especially, it makes a lot of sense.
Anyone approaching the question of getting a generator for a site needs to weigh a lot of factors. What's right for your site might not be the same as for someone else.
As for gas being cut by public safety, that can be a good thing. From what I read, #7 WTC may well have stayed up had it not been for the diesel stored there. If they'd been running from street gas, they'd have lost power, but maybe not lost the building. Sometimes it's a good thing to be able to interrupt the fuel source to a building that's on fire or threatened by fire.
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Yo Brian!
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
> Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and
> to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of
> thing just not exist?
Find somebody with Internet Access and a "browser--go to Google.com,
enter "generator backup ups" in the box.
Otherwise stroll down to Home Depot. My HD sells a full kit, includeing
generator. Then hire an electrician to install it since the code requirements
are not obvious.
RGDS
GARY
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701
gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676
>
>>Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and
>>to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of
>>thing just not exist?
>
> I think you are looking at it wrong, you need an Automatic Transfer Switch.
> It connects to both commercial power and your generator, and provides a feed
> into your panels. Your UPS's sit in front of the ATS, and provide clean
> power. If/When you loose commercial power, the ATS will detect this and
> power on the generator, after a configurable amount of time it will switch to
> generator power, until commercial power comes back and is stable for X amount
> of time.
We are talking about some significant energy levels here, and this
is NOT a DIY project. If the switch is hooked up wrong, you can
(attempt) to power up your part of the grid during a failure, and
kill people in the attempt.
Agreed. You should have an electrician install the automatic transfer
switch along with the UPS. If you are going to install a permanent
generator you will need to get permits anyway, which will require a
licensed electrican. Talk to your UPS vendor for electrical contractor
recommendations in your area.
BTW, for safety and protection of your equipment, large automatic transfer
switches sense voltage, frequency, and phase when switching between
generator and utility power.
Mike.
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