Transparent hijacking of SMTP submission...

I don't see this in my home market, but I do see it in someone else's...
I kind of expect this for port 25 but...

J@mb-aye:~$telnet 147.28.0.81 587
Trying 147.28.0.81...
Connected to nagasaki.bogus.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 nagasaki.bogus.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.14.9/8.14.9; Thu, 27 Nov 2014
19:17:44 GMT
ehlo bogus.com
250-nagasaki.bogus.com Hello XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.wa.comcast.net
[XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX], pleased to meet you
250 ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES

J@mb-aye:~$telnet 2001:418:1::81 587
Trying 2001:418:1::81...
Connected to nagasaki.bogus.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 nagasaki.bogus.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.14.9/8.14.9; Thu, 27 Nov 2014
19:18:33 GMT
ehlo bogus.com
250-nagasaki.bogus.com Hello
[IPv6:2601:7:2380:XXXX:XXXX:XXXX:c1ae:7d73], pleased to meet you
250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
250-PIPELINING
250-8BITMIME
250-SIZE
250-DSN
250-AUTH DIGEST-MD5 CRAM-MD5 LOGIN
250-STARTTLS
250-DELIVERBY
250 HELP

that's essentially a downgrade attack on my ability to use encryption
which seems to be in pretty poor taste frankly.

Which is why your MTA should always be setup to require the use of
STARTTLS. Additionally the CERT presented should also match the
name of the server.

There is absolutely no reason for a ISP / hotspot to inspect
submission traffic. The "stopping spam" argument doesn't wash with
submission.

Mark

Yes. Till that hotspots IP space gets blackholed by a major freemail
because of all the nigerians and hijacked devices emitting bot traffic
through stolen auth credentials.

There's other ways to stop this but they take actual hard work and rather
more gear than a rusted up old asa you pull out of your closet as like as
not.

Yes. Till that hotspots IP space gets blackholed by a major freemail
because of all the nigerians and hijacked devices emitting bot traffic
through stolen auth credentials.

Why would it black hole the address rather than the block the
compromised credentials? The whole point of submission is to
authenticate the submitter and to be able to trace spam back to the
submitter and deal with the issue at that level of granuality.

Blocking at that level also stop the credentials being used from
anywhere.

scalpel vs chainsaw.

Just because you provide free email doesn't give you the right to
not do the service properly. You encouraged people to use your
service. You should resource it to deal with the resulting load
and that includes dealing with spam and scans being sent with stolen
credentials. As a free email provider you have the plain text.

Mark

Hi Joel,

I'm not sure I follow your complaint here. Are you saying that Comcast or a
Comcast customer in Washington state stripped the STARTTLS verb from the
IPv4 port 587 SMTP submission connection between you and a third party?

Thanks,
Bill Herrin

No. He is a comcast customer. And some third party wifi access point
blocked his smtp submission over TLS by setting up an asa device to inspect
587 as well.

Oh it depends on the numbers.

Just how many legitimate smtp submission attempts do you get from say an
access point at Joes diner in nowhere, OH?

Versus just how many password cracking and malware relay attempts across
how many of your users, from an unpatched xp box the guy is using for a
billing app?

At the scale of the problem a provider with any kind of userbase faces, you
need a chainsaw, not a scalpel, given that you're out to cut a tree rather
than perform plastic surgery.

Yup; that's what he's saying. This was in the technical press earlier this
week -- or the end of last.

Cheers,
-- jra

And, of course, *just* as I hit send, I remembered it was in RISKS, linking
to EFF:

  https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/starttls-downgrade-attacks

Note that's dated 11 November, so this is a couple weeks old now.

Cheers,
-- jra

I don't see this in my home market, but I do see it in someone else's...
I kind of expect this for port 25 but...

J@mb-aye:~$telnet 147.28.0.81 587
Trying 147.28.0.81...
Connected to nagasaki.bogus.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 nagasaki.bogus.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.14.9/8.14.9; Thu, 27 Nov 2014
19:17:44 GMT
ehlo bogus.com
250-nagasaki.bogus.com Hello XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.wa.comcast.net
[XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX], pleased to meet you
250 ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES

J@mb-aye:~$telnet 2001:418:1::81 587
Trying 2001:418:1::81...
Connected to nagasaki.bogus.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 nagasaki.bogus.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.14.9/8.14.9; Thu, 27 Nov 2014
19:18:33 GMT
ehlo bogus.com
250-nagasaki.bogus.com Hello
[IPv6:2601:7:2380:XXXX:XXXX:XXXX:c1ae:7d73], pleased to meet you
250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
250-PIPELINING
250-8BITMIME
250-SIZE
250-DSN
250-AUTH DIGEST-MD5 CRAM-MD5 LOGIN
250-STARTTLS
250-DELIVERBY
250 HELP

that's essentially a downgrade attack on my ability to use encryption
which seems to be in pretty poor taste frankly.

i think of it as an intentional traffic hijack. i would be talking to a
lawyer.

randy, who plans to test next time he is behind comcast

Hi Jay,

Seems to me that if an ISP is altering the contents of its users' packets
(not just blocking them, altering them) then that ISP should be named and
shamed, if not worse. Unless the customer contracted for special account
type where that was a desired and intended feature, such behavior is
inexcusable.

If it's a customer of that ISP, on the other hand, then it's just the
normal idiocy and paranoia, no different than the retarded behavior by
amateur sysadmins that block all ICMP because they don't want to be pinged
(see PMTUD and its effects on TCP).

Anyway, I was curious which accusation was being leveled.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

I am so glad that our Dutch net neutrality laws state that "providers of Internet access services may not hinder or delay any services or applications on the Internet" (unless [...], but those exceptions make sense)

Cheers,
Sander

However, in the case of SMTP, due to the amount of spam, most ISPs break
"network neutrality" by blocking outbound port 25 for instance, and
their SMTP servers will block much incoming emails (spam). However,
SMTP is a layer or two above the network. But blocking port 25 is at the
network level.

I have seen wi-fi systems where you ask to connect to 20.21.22.23 port
25, and you get connected to 50.51.52.53 port 25. (the ISPs own SMTP
server). I would rather they just block it than redirect you without
warning to an SMTP server of their own where they can look and your
outbound email, pretend to acccept it, and never deliver it.

backing up a bit in the conversation, perhaps this is just in some
regions of comcastlandia? I don't see this in Northern Virginia...

$ openssl s_client -starttls smtp -connect my-mailserver.net:587
CONNECTED(00000003)
depth=0 description = kVjtrCL8rUdvd00q, C = US, CN =
my-mailserver.net, emailAddress = my-emailaddrss.com
verify error:num=20:unable to get local issuer certificate
verify return:1
depth=0 description = kVjtrCL8rUdvd00q, C = US, CN = my-mailsever.net,
emailAddress = my-emailaddress.com
verify error:num=27:certificate not trusted
verify return:1
depth=0 description = kVjtrCL8rUdvd00q, C = US, CN =
my-mailserver.net, emailAddress = my-emailaddress.com
verify error:num=21:unable to verify the first certificate
verify return:1

...

Certificate chain
0 s:/description=kVjtrCL8rUdvd00q/C=US/CN=my-mailserver.net/emailAddress=y-emailaddress.com
   i:/C=IL/O=StartCom Ltd./OU=Secure Digital Certificate
Signing/CN=StartCom Class 1 Primary Intermediate Server CA

...

New, TLSv1/SSLv3, Cipher is ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384
Server public key is 2048 bit
Secure Renegotiation IS supported
Compression: NONE
Expansion: NONE
SSL-Session:
    Protocol : TLSv1.2
    Cipher : ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384
    Session-ID: FC3E47AF2A2A96BF6DE6E11F96B02A0C41A6542864271F2901F09594DE9A48FA
    Session-ID-ctx:
    Master-Key:
BE7FB76EF5C0A9BA507B175026F73E67080D6442201FDF28F536FA38197A9B1353D644EEAF8D0D264328F94B2EF5742C
    Key-Arg : None
    PSK identity: None
    PSK identity hint: None
    SRP username: None
    Start Time: 1417286582
    Timeout : 300 (sec)
    Verify return code: 21 (unable to verify the first certificate)

In article <CAL9jLaY1q_RBkyB6kczKZUiFR5b1r3kuVz8WivWR0Rjj_oaGTg@mail.gmail.com> you write:

backing up a bit in the conversation, perhaps this is just in some
regions of comcastlandia? I don't see this in Northern Virginia...

I don't see it in New Jersey, either.

Is this a direct connection, or a coffee shop sharing a cable connection or
something like that?

i think of it as an intentional traffic hijack. i would be talking to a
lawyer.

If the lawyer says anything other than that 47 USC 230(c)(2)(A)
provides broad immunity for ISP content filtering, even if the filters
sometimes screw up, you need a new lawyer.

Filtering STARTTLS on port 587 is pretty stupid, but not everything
that's stupid is illegal.

R's,
John

PS: I know enough technical people at Comcast that I would be
extremely surprised if it were Comcast doing this. There's plenty not
to like about the corporation, but the technical staff are quite
competent.

The STARTTLS filter was merely a tool used to divert and tap the traffic. It is the latter which is over the line.

randy, on a teensy non-computer

Seen some anti-virus software (on Windows) doing this.
You might not be running Windows though. Some home
router with some "security improvement" ?

//Marcin

my test was a home consumer cable link, not business grade and not
shared (more than cable is).

The phenomena I reported was observed on a consumer cable service (not
my own). it is now no-longer in evidence with that same source ip. In
answer an intermediate observation, the cpe and the devices on it are
sufficiently well understood now to rule them out.

from the mail servers vantage point...

Nov 27 xxxxx nagasaki sm-mta[5698]: NOQUEUE: tcpwrappers
((reverse).wa.comcast.net, (ip) ) rejection

given that the client gives up because it can't startssl and therefore
won't attempt to auth.

whereas a successful attempt with the same source ip is:

Nov 26 xxxxx nagasaki sm-mta[397]: STARTTLS=server,
relay=c-(reverse).wa.comcast.net [(ip)], version=TLSv1/SSLv3,
verify=NOT, cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA, bits=128/128