Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who have long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared to start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and paid for them) due to inaccurate declaration?
out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context?
It's means one of two things:
1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation
or
2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space
It's means one of two things:
sure, but 'how' exactly?
1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation
or
arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a
method to affect routability of a network.
2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space
... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support
that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For
allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ...
that's a lengthy process and expensive.
-Chris
Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from people who
have
long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it, prepared to
start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's (and paid
for them) due to inaccurate declaration?out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context?
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Very simple, just do it.
Very simple, just do it.
This isn't nike...
I'm sorry for being obtuse, but they (arin) can't really do anything.
I suspect that if they had to prosecute all folks in violation of the
RSA they would have financial issues... and it wouldn't really solve
anything long term anyway.
In short, ARIN can't affect routability
ARIN can't effectively deal with the contract issues in a
timely fashion
So.. what are they going to 'just do'?
-Chris
arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a
method to affect routability of a network.
Sure they do. They can and have put pressure on networks to stop advertisements from being propagated. What they can actually do if their bluff is called, I have no idea, but I've seen their influence work.
2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space
... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support
that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For
allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ...
that's a lengthy process and expensive.
Having looked back at old copies of the domain-template.txt and internet-number-template.txt, I really don't see why one group was grandfathered in with an indefinite free ride and the other was not at all.
Shane Ronan wrote:
Very simple, just do it.
Ha! We have some legacy IP space in continous use here at ASN13345 for over 12 years now that was recently "revoked" for a few weeks (only to be later restored via a transfer once the exact definition of "ownership" in a member-owned cooperative was hammered out).
Guess what stopped working in the interim? Well the whois records were gone and our abuse desk probably had a tiny decrease in complaints as a result. In some quarters that might be seen as a blessing, but we view abuse reports as cries for help from infected hosts that will become larger service outages if not addressed.
Also the in-addr services went away, affecting about a half dozen mail servers out of several thousand hosts in the "revoked" delegation. We did not receive one single call or complaint about connectivity in that duration apart from the in-addr loss, and those customers were offered smart host use or replacement IPs for the duration. The ones who chose the smart host continued to use the "revoked" IP space without problem after that.
The Internet's greatest strength and greatest weakness is the lack of a central authority who can "just do it". I for one am happy it is that way. It's part of what makes us an *autonomous* system, sovereign of our own little kingdom.
Mike
However if someone at ARIN had put in a call to say the top 10 transit
providers and asked them to black-hole this space (which they might do)
then where would you have been?
No, but they can sure send them a bill and then go after them for
collections when they don't pay it.
You say that as if it hasn't happened.
arin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a
method to affect routability of a network.Sure they do. They can and have put pressure on networks to stop
advertisements from being propagated. What they can actually do if their
bluff is called, I have no idea, but I've seen their influence work.
Right:
"Jon, hey this is hostmaster-at-arin-guy, your customer Jim is
announcing a prefix that we think isn't his, anymore. Could you block
that?"
you: "Well, they do pay me, they are current, why do you think
something bad is going on here?"
<evidence passed around, whois records removed>
you: "Ok, since you are arin, and I'm a good guy, I'll call the
customer, get their side and give them some time to migrate off/repair
their ARIN issues, end-of-week ok?"
1) assuming Jon is a 'good guy' (jon-lewis is, or has seemingly always been)
2) assuming this isn't a blatant VMX-networks-type hijack
3) assuming ARIN has a reason to pull whois content
I've been on the receiving end of that sort of call, and I've pulled
ASN's or ip-announcements back... but I've also seen customers get
into tangles for non-payment when bills went to someone who didn't
understand what ARIN was 
In the end, ARIN can't do anything if the 'customer' or 'ISP' in this
case decides to not listen to ARIN.
2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space
... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support
that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For
allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ...
that's a lengthy process and expensive.Having looked back at old copies of the domain-template.txt and
internet-number-template.txt, I really don't see why one group was
grandfathered in with an indefinite free ride and the other was not at all.
mysteries... I don't claim to understand that either... someone, I
suppose, long ago thought that this interwebz thing wasn't going to
take off? (or that 4b numbers really was enough...)
-Chris
However if someone at ARIN had put in a call to say the top 10 transit
providers and asked them to black-hole this space (which they might do)
then where would you have been?
'not my customer, not my issue, you REALLY need to talk to ASX who's
their provider...'
-Chris
No, but they can sure send them a bill and then go after them for
collections when they don't pay it.
where do you send the bill? For some even large organizations I've
seen bills get shuffled to random places that didn't deal with 'bills'
and then get dropped. Not everyone at these places understands what an
'ip address' or 'number resource' or 'ARIN' is... or what those things
mean to the 'business'.
This really isn't a simple thing, it's really not something that ARIN
can go cowboy up and fix. (not for lack of trying over the years of
course)
-Chris
From: christopher.morrow@gmail.com [mailto:christopher.morrow@gmail.com]
On Behalf Of Christopher Morrow
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:34 PM
To: Shane Ronan
Cc: nanog list
Subject: Re: The real issueVery simple, just do it.
This isn't nike...
I'm sorry for being obtuse, but they (arin) can't really do anything.
I suspect that if they had to prosecute all folks in violation of the
RSA they would have financial issues... and it wouldn't really solve
anything long term anyway.In short, ARIN can't affect routability
ARIN can't effectively deal with the contract issues in a
timely fashionSo.. what are they going to 'just do'?
-Chris
It's means one of two things:
sure, but 'how' exactly?
1) Recoup the unused space for paid reallocation
orarin never (nor do any RIR) guarantee routability, nor do they even a
method to affect routability of a network.2) Have the current "owner" pay the market rate for the IP space
... that's somewhat hard since the current policies don't support
that, and there is no real legal stance for legacy-allocations... For
allocated post-legacy-times ARIN can start court proceedings, but ...
that's a lengthy process and expensive.-Chris
Is ARIN, who won't even take back large blocks of space from
people who
have
long ago stopped using it and aren't paying anything for it,prepared
to
start filing civil suits against people who were assigned /24's(and
paid
for them) due to inaccurate declaration?out of curiousity.. 'take back' means what in this context?
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Shane Ronan wrote:
No, but they can sure send them a bill and then go after them for
collections when they don't pay it.
1) I don't care to pay higher member fees because ARIN has been going to court left and right.
2) ARIN membership hasn't voted for such, because they probably didn't want to pay higher fees.
3) Some of the "legacy" networks are the richest and meanest networks on the planet, and you can't go after the little guys without taking the big guys to court; you'll lose.
4) Join the ARIN mailing list for the lengthy boring discussion, and read their long archives that probably have touched all these points and actually are on topic.
5) If ARIN convinces people to blackhole your routes due to non-payment, this might be a list to discuss it on; though I doubt it.
-Jack
And exactly how are you determining it is 'unused'? Not announced to
the internet? (which means virtually nothing as far as 'use' status of
an IP block)
For pete sake, the time has come to resolve the issues that prevent
widespread adoption of IPv6:
- resolve RIR IPv6 allocation hassles for requesting end-user orgs
- insist on IPv6-capable hardware/services/engineering staff when
getting new hardware/services/staff
- work toward retirement of IPv6-incapable hardware/software
- train staff
- start PoCs for IPv6 services (ip transit, DNS, etc)
- start requiring IPv6 capability from ISPs which are slow to move
(Vendor A, V, S, etc)
Many large organizations use public IP space internally and do not
announce it to the Internet.
Some SPs use public IP space on private MPLS VPN networks to address
links to customers to ensure non-conflicting addresses are used.
Some companies run large extranets to connect to customers and partners.
Many of these use public IP space to ensure services exposed to
customers over these extranets never conflict with IP space used by
customers.
MOVE ON. Playing net cop does not solve the issue, merely forestalls
it.
'not my customer, not my issue, you REALLY need to talk to ASX who's
their provider...'-Chris
I don't believe this is how most ISP's would respond or there wouldn't be RBLs.
Simple, send it to the address and contact listed in their whois record.
But you are okay with them raising your fees to go to court left and right to enforce the declarations made by CEO's of companies who are happily paying the fees for the space they've been assigned.
Can't do that, they need that money to print and mail ARIN comic books.