residential/smb internet access in 2019 - help?

Mailman List Mirror (Read Only)
1

folks,

I’ve been away from nanog for a long time - and away from the ISP world for longer.

Looking at a house in a new area, at&t copper splice box out front, bellsouth fiber markers as well (yes, that’s usually just passing by. but it’s there). Owners since '82 said the telephone company was AT&T - but the New AT&T apparently no longer offers phone or internet service there.

This is located in a semi-rural area between Ocala and Gainesville Florida (Micanopy, specifically).

I knew the state of residential service was in sorry shape - but from what I’m reading, it seems to be worse than I’d though possible.

Anyone have any suggestions for service options? I’m cool with dark fiber, if it comes down to that (and can be price sanely and terminated somewhere useful), but it seems like there -should- still be CLEC/DLECs or just plain resellers in business who still have access to resources that are in the ground.

My business operates from home - so obviously quality service is a priority, and I’m willing to pay for it within reason. Business plans are certainly an option as well.

I’ve confirmed with all of the known players via their front channels - att, windstream, centurylink, frontier, cox/comcast/spectre.

Via backchannels I’ve confirmed that cox has fiber in the ground 1.4 miles away - straight shot down a dirt road (same one with the BS fiber markers). I have a lead on a couple of tower shots - but there’s a big (for florida) ridge between us, and I might have to build 3-400ft to hit anything (speculatively).

Anyone have local area or other knowledge that might be helpful?

I’d hate to miss out on this house - it’s a lot of things we love - but cell or sat only for internet access just isn’t going to fly.

thanks guys.

…david

2

This is a common problem with no good solution. Fiber buildouts are almost always insanely expensive. If you can get one at a more reasonable cost, or more likely if you can sign a contract of a sufficient length to convince the carrier to subsidize it, you may be able to get good service that way.

The tower thing could also work if you want to spend the time/money on building and maintaining it. And also provided you can get a permit, etc.

But most likely you’re just out of luck.

3

it’s really amazing that this is still the case, with our effectively internet based economy now.

4

Have been through something similar recently with CenturyLink extending fiber service to a residence where only 3Mbps DSL was available previously.

Total costs ended up being in the mid five figures range (though I don’t know how far they needed to extend fiber). We amortized over a multi-year term on top of an already four figure MRC. 50Mbps service in the end.

Probably not worth it for most.

Ray

5

But most likely you’re just out of luck.

it’s really amazing that this is still the case, with our effectively internet based economy now.

Agreed…this is why monopolies are bad and municipal fiber is good.

6

Agreed…this is why monopolies are bad and municipal fiber is good.

It’s not like municipal fiber has some magic spell to make last mile affordable though. On OP’s instance he would run into the same issue and would be paying that five figure amount to bring FTTP. Municipal fiber is only good if you happen to live where a municipality has already buried conduit.

I’m not saying we should support monopolistic practices, but “municipal fiber everywhere!” isn’t necessarily the answer either.

7

Is there any chance LEO operators like OneWeb etc will make a difference on this front, and, if so, when?

joly

8

Agreed…this is why monopolies are bad and municipal fiber is good.

It’s not like municipal fiber has some magic spell to make last mile affordable though. On OP’s instance he would run into the same issue and would be paying that five figure amount to bring FTTP. Municipal fiber is only good if you happen to live where a municipality has already buried conduit.

I’m not saying we should support monopolistic practices, but “municipal fiber everywhere!” isn’t necessarily the answer either.

That’s fair. What I really meant, and didn’t take the time to think through and express properly, was this: financing a large fiber buildout like it’s a long-term investment, rather than something that should make back its capital cost in 1-3 years, gets fiber to more people. Most commercial ISPs do not want to do this because they want immediate profit. Municipalities are used to making long-term infrastructure investments (like bridges, etc.) and are more amenable to doing it with fiber.

Even if there were a municipality which had done a fiber buildout near OP’s desired house, he may have still run into the same issue of no fiber being close enough to be financially viable. But the more fiber plant there is, the less likely that scenario becomes.

9

Order the service and have it installed before you close. Test it and ensure
it's good. If the buyer won't allow it, walk.

You _cannot_ trust some carrier to tell you what you have available before
it's actually turned up. Time and time again I see people close on a home
where Frontier or Cox or whoever says they have fiber there, and then after
the move in, 4-8 week later you find out they don't have anything. Across the
road, yes, but all you can get is POTS and IDSL/ISDN.

Yep, is 2019 ISDN/IDSL is the only broadband service some people can get.
It's also going to be 100+ USD per month.

10

https://broadbandnow.com/Florida/Micanopy?zip=32667#

You might want to try neighboring ZIP codes to see what other fixed wireless providers might be convinced to expand.

http://svic.net/wireless-broadband-north-florida/

11

If you’re looking to start an ISP, talk to Windstream and Uniti for transport. I can put you in touch with people, should you be interested in going down that route.

12

You really want to weigh what wireless can offer as many of the local players
doing wireless lack the depth of network knowledge and are completely ignorant
of what it takes to run an RF network. I'd independently verify your circuits
up-time if you decide to go with a wireless ISP.

The other sad part is the PtMP wireless technology is likely slower than an
LTE modem with external antenna.

The WISP's had a great time circa 2005 or so, but now that the licensed
players have surpassed what they can offer it's hard to justify the lower
availability of the typical WISP vs. cost.

13

You are way out of line, and grouping a whole industry into your experience with (probably) one hack

14

I don't think I'm out of line, I'm relating what I've seen time and time
again. Most WISP's are poorly capitalized and have to run extremely lean.
Most WISP's cannot afford to employ experienced engineering staff. This
causes problems in any company, let alone one where a lightning strike can
take out an entire tower of equipment. Couple this with a lack of RF savvy
engineering and failures are inevitable.

Looking at the website of http://pcguys.us/services.html, one can see the
highest service offered is "5.0Mbps" and pricing is 89.99/month for this
service. I've got 45 Mbit/s on my Tmobile LTE card, and fully unlimited is in
the same ballpark.

Looking at the typical equipment used (64 QAM, 20 MHz channel), you're going
to have a raw bitrate of around 80 mbit/s. Couple this with overhead and some
inevitable interference and an access point will have about 50 mbit's of large
frame capacity. This is not much, and every client added will slightly reduce
this due to multicast and supervisory signaling losses. Each system is going
to be Time Division Duplex (using the same channel for transmit and receive),
so you will split this say 75/25 down/up stream. This means you have at best
37.5 Mbit/s available for all clients to share, which isn't much for a 90 or
120 degree sector out to 10 miles (or more) depending on density.

802.16 WIMAX had several things to address these issues, but it's dead and
slow. In the US (as this is NANOG), few operators had the 3.65 GHz licenses
for true wimax, and CBRS is eclipsing these licensed operators shortly.

Wireless has it's place, but Point-to-Multi-Point broadband on 5 GHz is not it.

15

and CBRS is eclipsing these licensed operators shortly.

Yeah what about that?

https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/google-courts-wisps-tailored-cbrs-solutions

16

Wisp here.

Our subscribers can get 100mbps bi directional.

But we also know what we are doing.

Technology is getting better, so speeds are getting better.

17

And being honest here - what percent of WISP operators out there are in your
category, as opposed to the under-capitalized and RF experienced challenged
group that Bryan was commenting in regards to?

I'll bet a large pizza with everything but anchovies that it's in the same ballpark
percentage as small copper/fiber base ISPs that have people who read NANOG.

In other words, really low.

18

Ahh, and there's your misunderstanding.

Most good WISPS deploy equipment which is capable of much more, with
much smaller cell sizes anymore. 256QAM is the rule, 3 Miles is a
large cell size, and with MU-MIMO enabled AP's you can get aggregate
of around 500MB/s on a single 20Mhz wide channel. If you can find
40Mhz, it's over 1GB/s. Of course, this depends on the exact
equipment deployed. Even with lower-end equipment most operators
end up with 200Mb/s in 40Mhz - and will often limit the number of
customers on that 200Mb/s AP to a dozen or so.

You need to be aware that the industry has grown up a LOT in the last
4-5 years, but like in any industry there are bad and good operators.
Some do fit into the category you're describing, but from what I can
see a large portion of them do know how to deliver a lot of bandwidth.

In addition, many WISP's are now also trenching fiber to the home
where it makes sense, and deploying fixed wireless where it doesn't.
Often the fiber trenching is being driven by those sites where the
aggregate customer bandwidth needs do outstrip the capability of the
wireless network.

19

Variability will always happen with small businesses, but you’re more likely to encounter someone that won’t do nasty things to your bits through a local WISP as opposed to a national player. It’s also more likely to be consistent versus the variability of a mobile service.

WISPs have been going strong for years.

Typically when a fixed wireless customer moves to mobile wireless, they move back within a couple months.

Also, most people don’t need more than 10 megs at home, so fixed providers that haven’t upgraded to support faster speeds aren’t really at a disadvantage when you look at how the connection is actually used. That becomes apparent once you switch.

20

It seems like _someone_ has to be the CLEC and "Carrier of Last
Resort" for the area. Not that that means you are going to get the
service you want.

Check with the Florida Public Services Commission for what you should
be able to expect: http://www.psc.state.fl.us/