OT: Yahoo- apparently now an extension of the Chinese govt secret police....

Way OT, but very interesting- don't know if anyone saw this article about Yahoo collaborating with the Chinese government's police (from the BBC):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4221538.stm

If this is true, I for one will stop using Yahoo- I have spent alot of time in Asia myself, and I am very aware of the nature of the Chinese secret police. But if the article is true, I guess Yahoo doesn't care about the opinion of the regular consumer when they can curry favor with a repressive regime by informing on people.

So, if you email friends in China from a Yahoo account, you have been warned!

So, if you email friends in China from a Yahoo account, you have been
warned!

What makes you think that gmail.com, mail.ru or
your-isp.net is any different? Trust in human
nature, perhaps?

Every company has to obey the laws of the jurisdictions
in which they do business, and for international
companies, that list of jurisdictions can be very,
very long.

--Michael Dillon

However, clearly, companies doing business in China under this set of
rules are placing profits ahead of human rights. I, for one, will avoid
patronizing any organization I know to be engaged in such practices.

Owen

Obeying the (local) law is, in most cases, very reasonable.

But when presented with *that* request from *that* government, the correct
response -- from anyone with a conscience and a spine -- is "go to hell".

---Rsk

Not in *that* country, it's not. You knew the rules before you crossed the border. If you are there, you have to follow the rules.

There is an argument to be made for not being in "that country" to begin with, but if you are there, you better comply.

There has been constant reporting of US and other IT companies going
into in China co-operating with the mainland Chinese government. The
mainland Chinese government cares about human rights about as much as
the average person cares about the rights of a Rigellian. For as long
as I can remember, I have tried as hard as possible not to buy anything
"Made in China" [unless I find that it's actually from Taiwan].

>
>>Every company has to obey the laws of the jurisdictions
>>in which they do business, and for international
>>companies, that list of jurisdictions can be very,
>>very long.
>
>Obeying the (local) law is, in most cases, very reasonable.
>
>But when presented with *that* request from *that* government, the
>correct
>response -- from anyone with a conscience and a spine -- is "go to
>hell".

Not in *that* country, it's not. You knew the rules before you
crossed the border. If you are there, you have to follow the rules.

There is an argument to be made for not being in "that country" to
begin with, but if you are there, you better comply.

So, let's do the logic, as this is a simple schoolchild exercise.

If one has a conscience and a spine, then one says no to this kind of
request.

If one is in mainland China to do business, one is compelled not to say
no to this kind of request.

From the first statement, if one does not to say no to this kind of

request, then one does not have a conscience or a spine.

Let us take as given that if one is compelled to do something, that is
to say that one is doing it, as that is the meaning of compel.

Therefore, if one is in mainland China to do business, then one does not
have a conscience or a spine.

As I said, this is simple schoolchild logic, the kind we all supposedly
learned in school. One may argue with the premises, but if one accepts
the premises, one may not argue with the conclusion.

So, let's do the logic, as this is a simple schoolchild exercise.

[snip]

Therefore, if one is in mainland China to do business, then one does not
have a conscience or a spine.

It is probably that one does not have a conscience, is insane and does not
subscribe to to logical reason...

Personally, I see doing business in China about as logical as, say, giving
430 6th graders laptops with Internet access, and expecting them to pay
attention in the classroom... Oh, and cutting the sports programs to
afford those laptops. Man, if someone had given me a laptop in 6th grade,
I would have sold it!

-Sean

Personally, I see doing business in China about as logical as, say, giving
430 6th graders laptops with Internet access, and expecting them to pay
attention in the classroom... Oh, and cutting the sports programs to
afford those laptops. Man, if someone had given me a laptop in 6th grade,
I would have sold it!

Basic Trade:
Some countries have an abundance of one thing while they lack another.

So, what they have too much of is cheap, and too little of, is costly.

It goes crazy from that point.

China has a lot of cheap stuff and a lot of cheap labor, and importing from China and/or manufacturing in China is good business.

To work in China, one of the biggest markets in the world, you follow China's rules. If you don't like the rules you don't have to.

But what you guys spew out is China-hate. Is that the kind of propaganda you get fed in schools?

I am happy we've been able to discuss this like adults, here on NANOG. After all, this is about human networking.

  Gadi.

I do not hate myself or any other Chinese people.

I do hate the lack of respect for human rights shown by the mainland
Chinese government, and the slave labor prisons otherwise known as
"cheap labor". And the lack of self-respect that allows others to turn
a blind eye to this for their own profit.

I should add that my original statement pertains to (obviously) the Chinese *government* alone! I am concerned about the repression that the Chinese people experience, and the basic freedoms that they lack.

As far as 'China hate' is concerned- this definately doesn't apply to me- many of my friends are from mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. I lived for many years in the area, and speak pretty passable Mandarin myself (was pretty fluent, but it has deteriorated a bit, I'm afraid!). So, love the Chinese people, their culture, and history - resent the Chinese government's repression (though I personally believe the Hu Jin Tao *may* turn out to be a great improvement on leaders such as Jiang Zemin, Deng Xiaoping, and obviously Mao Zedong- I hear that Hu Jin Tao even met Hu Yaobang's widow, and plans a commemoration in the Great Hall of the People!!).

And when the corporate executives have a legal and moral obligation to
generate income for the stockholders (barring a stockholder's resolution
or other similar instrument dictating otherwise), what is one to do when
"vast profits" and "vast evil" lie in the same direction?

Even Google, with it's "Don't Be Evil" policy, finds it difficult sometimes,
because there *are* no clear answers. Yes, it's a little evil to provide
a censored Google to the Chinese mainland. On the other hand, would it be
more evil, or less evil, to *totally* withold all Google?

Bob Arthurs wrote:

I should add that my original statement pertains to (obviously) the Chinese *government* alone! I am concerned about the repression that the Chinese people experience, and the basic freedoms that they lack.

As far as 'China hate' is concerned- this definately doesn't apply to me- many of my friends are from mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. I

And I am sure none of us are actually China haters or gay bashers, many of my friends are gay, too!

lived for many years in the area, and speak pretty passable Mandarin myself (was pretty fluent, but it has deteriorated a bit, I'm afraid!). So, love the Chinese people, their culture, and history - resent the Chinese government's repression (though I personally believe the Hu Jin Tao *may* turn out to be a great improvement on leaders such as Jiang Zemin, Deng Xiaoping, and obviously Mao Zedong- I hear that Hu Jin Tao even met Hu Yaobang's widow, and plans a commemoration in the Great Hall of the People!!).

Still, China is by its own right a country with its own laws. You don't have to agree with them but that's how it is. B*ching about it here told me nothing of operational problems anyone faces except for over-zealous political opinions.

Want to bring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict up too?

  Gadi.

And when the corporate executives have a legal and moral obligation to
generate income for the stockholders (barring a stockholder's resolution
or other similar instrument dictating otherwise), what is one to do when
"vast profits" and "vast evil" lie in the same direction?

Moralities aren't black and white, generating profits falls behind other legal
and moral obligations that apply to everyone.

Even Google, with it's "Don't Be Evil" policy

Any influence Google's "Don't be Evil" policy had vanished the day it was
floated AFAICT.

Where profits are put before morals that is called greed. Sure the
stockmarkets allow people to put greedy people in charge of their money, but
be aware what goes around, comes around.

HG Wells referred to people investing in the stockmarket as a purely financial
endevour for short term profits as "the irresponsibly wealthy" as far back as
1902. Plus �a change.

>
> And when the corporate executives have a legal and moral obligation to
> generate income for the stockholders (barring a stockholder's resolution
> or other similar instrument dictating otherwise), what is one to do when
> "vast profits" and "vast evil" lie in the same direction?

Moralities aren't black and white, generating profits falls behind other legal
and moral obligations that apply to everyone.

Except, they don't in the United States corporations have a legal
obligation to put profits above all else. They are legally forbidden to
put morality above profit. These laws are severyly in need of some
adjustments.

> Even Google, with it's "Don't Be Evil" policy

Any influence Google's "Don't be Evil" policy had vanished the day it was
floated AFAICT.

Where profits are put before morals that is called greed. Sure the

No, that is following the law.

stockmarkets allow people to put greedy people in charge of their money, but
be aware what goes around, comes around.

HG Wells referred to people investing in the stockmarket as a purely financial
endevour for short term profits as "the irresponsibly wealthy" as far back as
1902. Plus ça change.

Michael

You deeply misunderstand the law.

And the topic of this mailing list. :slight_smile:

Apparently you aren't familiar with police techniques in China.
When presented with *ANY* request from *that* government, you smile
politely and don't give them a reason to shoot you on the spot.

If you don't want to play their games, don't enter the court. If you're in
the court, one learns to play politely.