Non-GPS derived timing sources (was Re: NTp sources that work in a datacenter)

I don't expect GPS to spin out of control soon..

So GPS tracks TAI and the difference is published (2 months after the
fact..)

But it's simple to build a 'jamer' that makes GPS reception not work
in a limited area, same for Loran-C used in combination with GPS in
many Sonet/SDH S1 devices.

but I did wonder how
hard it is to find a another reliable clock source of similar quality to
GPS to double check GPS.

Short for a lab part of TAI, I really don't knew. GPS
price/perfromance is fenomenal.

US clocks account for 40% of the input to TAI.

In the month of April 2003;

   NIST was 4.662%
   USNO was 44.314%

   (and we where 0.501%...)

-Peter

On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 08:13:08AM -0700, Peter Lothberg quacked:

> I don't expect GPS to spin out of control soon..

So GPS tracks TAI and the difference is published (2 months after the
fact..)

But it's simple to build a 'jamer' that makes GPS reception not work
in a limited area, same for Loran-C used in combination with GPS in
many Sonet/SDH S1 devices.

> but I did wonder how
> hard it is to find a another reliable clock source of similar quality to
> GPS to double check GPS.

   For NTP purposes, WWVB is actually just fine, as long as you properly
configure your distance from the transmitter. The NTP servers list shows
several WWVB synchronized clocks. CDMA clocks synch indirectly to GPS,
but are typically locally stabalized by a rubidium or ovenized quartz
oscillator with decent holdover capabilities for a few days of GPS outages.
But they'll suffer the same fate if GPS went just plain wrong.

   The NIST timeservers are available over the net, if you can deal with
that degree of synch. Lots of them just use ACTS dialup synch to get the
offset, and have very good local clocks. ACTS is certainly a good fall-back
for GPS, since it uses a wired path instead of a wireless one.

  So if you're really paranoid: GPS + WWVB + ACTS + internet to tick/tock or
one of the NIST primaries. Ultimately, WWVB, ACTS, and ntp to NIST are
all synched from pretty much the same source, but the odds that they'd
all go bad are pretty slim. GPS is steered from the USNO time, but the
clocks on the satellites are pretty good.

    -Dave

Hello;

GPS maintains a set of its own clocks at Falcon AFB and does not really
track or steer to TAI - however, they are very close in practice (except that the AF did not know
about Leap Seconds when they started out and synced it to UTC in the early 1980's -
thus, there is a 19 second offset between the GPS time system and TAI.)

Every major time service and most national standards labs maintain a set of clocks of comparable accuracy - US, UK, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, Australia, etc., so there is no shortage of timing info to compare it with.

The International GPS Service (IGS - http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/ - a collaboration between
various geodetic and time service users of GPS -
has a rapid service with information including clock offsets with 17 hours latency
see http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/components/prods_cb.html for data availability.

These solutions are NOT based on the official DOD tracking data but instead on the
much more accurate carrier phase (and are not affected by either Anti-Spoofing or
Selective Availability when these are turned on - see www.timingtechnologies.com/Gpswp1.pdf
for a description of these degradations for civilian users). There is no doubt that a major perturbation
in the GPS clocks (say, several 100 nanoseconds as is typical with SA) would be detected by the IGS
within 24 hours.

These was a pilot program set up to use these data for official time transfer - see
http://maia.usno.navy.mil/gpst.html for a host of details. I do not know its status since Jim Ray
left the USNO.

GLONASS maintains another set of clocks and satellites.
Of course, once Galileo is launched there will be yet another source of time sync.

All of this is important if you need synchronization at 100 nanoseconds or better.
LORAN will not give you this by several orders of magnitude - nor will WWVB nor
NTP. If you do care about time at this level, get at least a Rubidium clock and sync it
to GPS. If you do not, I would not worry about it even at the highest paranoia levels -
there are other equally paranoid people who will start screaming well before you notice.

On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 08:13:08AM -0700, Peter Lothberg quacked:

I don't expect GPS to spin out of control soon..

So GPS tracks TAI and the difference is published (2 months after the
fact..)

But it's simple to build a 'jamer' that makes GPS reception not work
in a limited area, same for Loran-C used in combination with GPS in
many Sonet/SDH S1 devices.

but I did wonder how
hard it is to find a another reliable clock source of similar quality to
GPS to double check GPS.

   For NTP purposes, WWVB is actually just fine, as long as you properly
configure your distance from the transmitter. The NTP servers list shows
several WWVB synchronized clocks. CDMA clocks synch indirectly to GPS,
but are typically locally stabalized by a rubidium or ovenized quartz
oscillator with decent holdover capabilities for a few days of GPS outages.
But they'll suffer the same fate if GPS went just plain wrong.

   The NIST timeservers are available over the net, if you can deal with
that degree of synch. Lots of them just use ACTS dialup synch to get the
offset, and have very good local clocks. ACTS is certainly a good fall-back
for GPS, since it uses a wired path instead of a wireless one.

  So if you're really paranoid: GPS + WWVB + ACTS + internet to tick/tock or
one of the NIST primaries. Ultimately, WWVB, ACTS, and ntp to NIST are
all synched from pretty much the same source, but the odds that they'd
all go bad are pretty slim. GPS is steered from the USNO time, but the
clocks on the satellites are pretty good.

    -Dave

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work: dga@lcs.mit.edu me: dga@pobox.com
      MIT Laboratory for Computer Science http://www.angio.net/
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                                  Regards
                                  Marshall Eubanks

T.M. Eubanks
Multicast Technologies, Inc.
e-mail : tme@multicasttech.com
http://www.multicasttech.com

Test your network for multicast :
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Actually my question wasn't so much about other national standards labs,
but that almost every major Internet backbone worldwide seems to trace
their time source to GPS. Maybe not that surprising for US/North American
providers, but even non-american backbones seem to use GPS.

To be clear, I'm not talking about individuals syncing things to lots of
different clocks. Clock.ORG has lots of clock sources around the world.
I'm talking about what network providers use.

It was just one of those midnight projects a month or so ago, when I
noticed my carefully balanced selection of tickers had slowly over the
last few years all changed from other time sources to GPS. Probably
not critical, but national standards labs have accidentily flipped
the wrong switch in the past and done strange things to their time
broadcasts. Yes, lots of people noticed, and it was fixed quickly. NTP
has all this great logic for sanity checking time sources, but if they
all come from the same origin, what happens?

In a message written on Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 11:57:21PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote:

Actually my question wasn't so much about other national standards labs,
but that almost every major Internet backbone worldwide seems to trace
their time source to GPS. Maybe not that surprising for US/North American
providers, but even non-american backbones seem to use GPS.

Could it be that providers actually have multiple sources, but for
some reason GPS is always picked as the primary source for the
public facing function? At least a few providers keep their actual
sources (the receivers themselves) "hidden", and provide a unix box
syncing to all of them as the front end. From my limited knowledge,
that front end box will only show the one source it has picked as
"best".

You can go out and get yourself a nice Cesium source (like the ones in orbit) that will give you an accurate clock pulse with Stratum 1 quality. Cost: about 45K. Of course, this wont help you with Time Of Day information. It will only keep you completely accurate in case of a loss of outside reference.

NTP should properly detect a loss of all outside sync sources. In other words, if all the clocks in the world that you were syncing to all of a sudden said it was tommorrow NTP should properly disregard them as all being out of sync and refuse to sync to them. If you try and start up NTP with your local clock too far out of sync, NTPD will not start up. If they all go away or go out of sync after you have properly disciplined your LO, it should detect the fault and continue to provide accurate time but drift to the degree your local clock isn't of a Stratum 1 quality. The net result is that you will stay accurate as long as your local reference oscillator is of Stratum 1 quality (or better).

As an aside, you can check the accuracy of your GPS signal by comparing it to a local Cesium. That's how the government does it. You'll only be able to tell if they agree or not though, not which one is right.

-Richard

Sean Donelan wrote:

LINX has three of these, with a view to providing a good source of NTP time in London, in a co-location facility which just happens to be on the meridian, and whose roof we found accessible...

We encourage all our members, where appropriate, to use this local source of time.

http://www.linx.net/press/releases/046.thtml

Like all answers, it depends.

A relatively small number of providers have blocked access to their
"master" NTP servers. So you can't see the current source from the next
stratum down. You get a domain name, like ntp-1.ispdom.ain, for the
source.

But a large number permit queries to their NTP servers. They will report
all the stratum 0 sources available, including the current sync'd source.
Almost no providers use more than one stratum 0 source per NTP server.
The people with lots of stratum 0 sources are almost never network service
providers. Generally NSPs have 1 stratum 0 source, a two or three stratum
1 peers, and lots of stratum 2s. Most providers don't have a dedicated NTP
infrastructure, so their tickers are running on routers and general
purpose servers.

Due to the way NTP works, it is a self-directed hierarchy. A stratum 1
chimer is only at the top while its synced to a stratum 0 source.

Sean,

digging back through some old mail.

This is one of those like asking where we would get water after the reservoir dam broke and flooded the town. The planes on GPS instrument approach are going to be much less happy than you are. How about those satellites that use GPS for attitude awareness. Or the rail anticollision systems that are now GPS based. If GPS time gets screwed, internet time is the least of our worries.

Some of us remember the false ticker that caused the introduction of the NTP protection code. I don't think that anyone will ever build code like the fuzzball that stopped routing when the time got confused (although I guess I really shouldn't say that.)

As for GPS jamming, it's easy to do on a local basis but hard to do on a widespread basis (unless you own the satellites.) For the accuracies that most people care about, dropping one stratum won't be the end of the world. Not too many people care about the microseconds (except us time geeks.)

As for why everyone is switching to GPS time: it's cheap, it's much more accurate that anything else and it's available everywhere you can see a reasonable amount of the sky with no service charge. Other than that I can't see why people would do it.

jerry