I know of a Cairo IXP, and possibly one in the UAE. Is there one in Kuwait as yet?
There is one in Pakistan, and maybe Dubai. I would address this question to the SANOG list.
Regards
Marshall
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
I know of a Cairo IXP, and possibly one in the UAE. Is there one in Kuwait as yet?
ISOC-IL is running the IIX for Israel.
I know of a Cairo IXP, and possibly one in the UAE. Is there one in Kuwait as yet?
Yes, KIX. Note, there's CIX and CRIX. If you are trying to
reach African users, there's also KIX ala Kenya.
-M<
The exchange point in Nairobi is called KIXP, not KIX, in case it helps avoid that confusion. The KIXP is The Place to reach Kenyan users, but no ISPs from parts of Africa outside Kenya participate in it, as far as I know. <http://www.kixp.net/>.
Terrestrial paths between adjacent African countries are still somewhat rare. I don't have science to back this up, but I would not be surprised if the toplogical centre of today's African Internet turned out to be the LINX.
Joe
Yes, and double checking, I believe CIX/CRIX are one in the same with
a distinction being telco colo vs. IP colo. It's not specifically clear.
CRIX is run by the Egyptian MCIT. There are other options in Egypt depending
upon what you are doing. The incumbent IP provider is Xceed.
-M<
Martin Hannigan (c) 617-388-2663
Renesys Corporation (w) 617-395-8574
Member of Technical Staff Network Operations
hannigan@renesys.com
A look at Telegeography's bandwidth maps suggest that the African routes are
predominantly coastal.
http://www.afridigital.net/downloads/DFIDinfrastructurerep.doc
adds some more detail.
Frank
I would not be surprised if the toplogical centre of today's African
> Internet turned out to be the LINX.
Yep, with 111 8th close behind.
> A look at Telegeography's bandwidth maps suggest that the African
> routes are predominantly coastal.
Effectively, there's no connection between North Africa and the rest of
Africa... North Africa is relatively well connected to Europe via
multiple cables across the Mediterranean. The western coast of Africa,
wrapping around down to Cape Town, is "served" by SAT3/WASC, which is a
consortium cable with a strict noncompete, so there's no market pricing
available anywhere along there... Fiber is just as expensive as
satellite, but with the additional cost and hassle of monopoly backhaul
from the landing. East Africa and the land-locked central African
countries are unserved. Since Nigeria is a huge market and generates a
fair amount of cash relative to other markets in Africa, there are a
couple of new cables which may soon introduce competition on the
relatively short route from Lisbon down to Lagos and Abuja. Also,
there's been talk forever, but no action, on an East African cable which
would close the loop down from Djibouti to Cape Town, serving Mombasa and
Dar and Maputo. The population on the east coast is smaller and less
densely packed, though, and the fact that SAT3/WASC is effectively
running without a safety net (unless anybody's bothering to patch a
protect loop through SAFE to KL and back again through FLAG, which I
doubt) doesn't seem to bother anybody, since the cable is priced out of
the market anyway, and is thus virtually empty.
Anyway, back to the conversation at hand:
> Middle Eastern Exchange Points
> I know of a Cairo IXP, and possibly one in the UAE. Is there one in
> Kuwait as yet?
All the ISPs I've talked to in Egypt claim that the Cairo IX was a failed
experiment and that they haven't heard anything about it in the last two
years. Which roughly corresponds with the last time I heard anyone
talking about it in the present tense. But I'll defer to Joe if he has
other information.
As Joe's pointed out, what's available in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and
Kuwait are governmental monopoly incumbent transit services, a la STIX, as
opposed to Internet exchanges where peering takes place. There are
several private colocation facilities which sell transit, but are not
IXes, in Dubai and Kuwait. There has been a Bahrain governmental effort
to get an actual neutral IX going, which has been taking a while to get up
to speed, and isn't out of the weeds yet... They've been talking to all
the right people, have a site, have commitments from all of the cable
systems, have ISP customers who've signed letters of intent and have cash
waiting, but they don't have a building yet, just a bunch of cargo
containers sitting on the lot in Manama, and a satellite dish farm.
Nothing else I know of.
-Bill
[ SNIP ]
Anyway, back to the conversation at hand:
> Middle Eastern Exchange Points
> I know of a Cairo IXP, and possibly one in the UAE. Is there one in
> Kuwait as yet?All the ISPs I've talked to in Egypt claim that the Cairo IX was a failed
experiment and that they haven't heard anything about it in the last two
years. Which roughly corresponds with the last time I heard anyone
talking about it in the present tense. But I'll defer to Joe if he has
other information.As Joe's pointed out, what's available in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and
Kuwait are governmental monopoly incumbent transit services, a la STIX, as
opposed to Internet exchanges where peering takes place. There are
several private colocation facilities which sell transit, but are not
IXes, in Dubai and Kuwait.
Bill:
UAE
ISC has equipment out here. 192.228.85.0/24 is being announced out of emirates.net
can't be that bad. 
they are downstream of a whole bunch of net and I see
what looks like an IX. (corrections welcome) UAE looks interesting network wise.
It's too bad they can't get it together as you noted.
I don't see it as bad as you...interconnecting in a government exchange is
still peering. It may not be exactly the same, but I've found in some
cases you can't be too picky if you can peer with even a few regionals.
KIX:
3 lg. upstreams, 4 regional isp down, interconnected to UAE IX
Cairo:
CRIX is dead in name, but MCIT is running some exchange space & refer to it
crix xor cix xor mcit possibly by simple legacy and they will talk to anyone about it.
Xceed is the incumbent, renamed IIRC.
The terminology and "sexy" colo's built to Telcordia standards and NEBS compliance
may not be out there, but they are peering, even if it isn't by our definitions.
Howard, contact info for each out of band.
-M<
Martin Hannigan (c) 617-388-2663
Renesys Corporation (w) 617-395-8574
Member of Technical Staff Network Operations
hannigan@renesys.com
Interconnecting in a government exchange is
> still peering.
Uh, not if it's buying transit.
> They are peering, even if it isn't by our
> definitions.
Uh, Marty... the difference between peering and transit is that they have
different definitions. If you say transit is peering, just not by our
definitions, then you're into 1984 territory.
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.
For me, however, peering is peering, and transit is transit, and my world
works better when I use words in accord with, rather than in contravention
to, their definitions.
-Bill
Bill:
I'm pretty sure you know that I know the difference between paid transit
and peering. If I were buying transit, I would've had a different
comment. I think we may have a difference though, I don't think
jumping on a big switch and saying "yes" to every peering request is
peering, and I think this is a better discussion at the peering bof
or in person.
Anyhow, I'll be happy to tell you as much as I can (NDA) in
Montreal. I don't see you listed for Dallas.
Is Howard going to find peering in, er, Egypt? It depends what his
value proposition is.
-M<
Martin Hannigan (c) 617-388-2663
Renesys Corporation (w) 617-395-8574
Member of Technical Staff Network Operations
hannigan@renesys.com
The F-root node in Dubai is facilitated by Emirates Telecom/Etisalat/EMIX, as per <http://f.root-servers.org/>. At the time we installed there was no facility available for peering or other multi-point interconnect with operators in UAE. I am not aware that this has changed. Woody's comparison with the STIX is spot on, as far as I know.
In pragmatic terms, due to the local regulatory environment and in the absence of a neutral exchange point, obtaining transit from EMIX in Dubai is the best approximation to a comprehensive set of bilateral peering arrangements with local ISPs. However, it's not peering in a topological/routing policy sense. The fact that F-root's covering prefix doesn't propagate beyond the region is due to special handling of that prefix by our colleagues in AS 8966.
ISC's intention in Dubai, as in all regions, was to provide the best access possible to F-root within the immediate surrounding region. I believe we achieved that goal.
Joe
So what exactly is definition of transit that does not make it peering?
And when ISP A buys access from ISP B for purpose of getting to ISP C is that peering or transit?
As Joe's pointed out, what's available in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and
Kuwait are governmental monopoly incumbent transit services, a la
STIX, as
opposed to Internet exchanges where peering takes place. There are
several private colocation facilities which sell transit, but are not
IXes, in Dubai and Kuwait.ISC has equipment out here. 192.228.85.0/24 is being announced out
of emirates.net
can't be that bad.The F-root node in Dubai is facilitated by Emirates Telecom/Etisalat/ EMIX, as per <http://f.root-servers.org/>\. At the time we installed
there was no facility available for peering or other multi-point
interconnect with operators in UAE. I am not aware that this has
changed. Woody's comparison with the STIX is spot on, as far as I know.
Guys, are you being semantic? I'm *agreeing with you and
Woody here. Just not re: Kuwait and Egypt. You keep saying EMIX
and you're confusing me. Peering or no? "IX" naturally insinuates
yes regardless of neutrality.
In pragmatic terms, due to the local regulatory environment and in
the absence of a neutral exchange point, obtaining transit from EMIX
in Dubai is the best approximation to a comprehensive set of
bilateral peering arrangements with local ISPs. However, it's not
peering in a topological/routing policy sense. The fact that F-root's
covering prefix doesn't propagate beyond the region is due to special
handling of that prefix by our colleagues in AS 8966.
That's what I was interested in, and found. I appreciate
the political explanation. I saw ASN 8966 and behind that ASN 5384
w/55 prefixes. 5384 looks like a choke point.
ISC's intention in Dubai, as in all regions, was to provide the best
access possible to F-root within the immediate surrounding region. I
believe we achieved that goal.
What is the benchmark of speedy resolution vs. application i.e. how fast
do you resolve before it's irrelevant, if at all?
-M<
I'm not sure how to be more clear about this. EMIX is the name of a transit service offered by Emirates Telecom.
Joe
I thought it was generally accepted that "peering" is the exhange of routes that are not re-sent to other organisations.
"Transit" is when one entity sends the routes on to other organsiations, often with money involved.
And when ISP A buys access from ISP B for purpose of getting to ISP C is that peering or transit?
I thought it was generally accepted that "peering" is the exhange of routes that are not re-sent to other organisations.
If I peer with you, you sent me your routes and routes for who you consider
to be your customer and if ISP C is your customer then ISP A by having
peering with ISP B gets access to ISP C.
"Transit" is when one entity sends the routes on to other organsiations, often with money involved.
More commonly understood is that transit involves one ISP sending all
of its BGP routes and allowing any traffic to be send from ISP A
for for delivery to destination.
However number of organizations (say cogent buying from verio) only
get routes from certain specific ISPs that they can not otherwise reach
which is again scenario "ISP A buys from ISP B to get to ISP C" but
most people call this transit in this case...
The reality is that for outside observer (especially if you look at
the net as whole), there is no clear view that separates peering from
transit and most correct is to consider everything to be peering with
various differences being as to what kind of filters are deployed and
where and how money is being exchanged.
So what exactly is definition of transit that does not make it peering?
Transit is the exchange of TRANSITIVE routes to destinations which are not
the downstream customers of either of the two parties to the transaction.
> And when ISP A buys access from ISP B for purpose of getting to ISP C is
> that peering or transit?
That's transit.
-Bill
Guys, are you being semantic?
Yes, we're doggedly insisting that words mean what they're defined to
mean, rather than the opposite.
> You keep saying EMIX
> and you're confusing me. Peering or no? "IX" naturally insinuates
> yes regardless of neutrality.
Exactly. "IX" as a component of a name is _intended to insinuate_ the
availability of peering, _regardless of whether that's actually true or
false_. Which is why we keep analogizing to the STIX, which was _called_
an IX, but was _not_ an IX, in that it had nothing to do with peering,
only with a single provider's commercial transit product. The same is
currently true throughout much of the Middle East.
-Bill
cant believe you are even invoking this debate.. *cough troll*
its quite simple:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=transit
1. The act of passing over, across, or through; passage.
if another networks traffic enters your network, then you send it out to another
network it has transitted you.
doesnt matter what money is involved, its about the act of 'transitting'
peering is just the act of exchanging traffic with another network, whether this
is a transit or peering relationship depends on what routes are exchanged and
whose customers are within those routes.. i think you can work the rest out
Steve