Anyone else get mail from this idiot?
Alan Bechtold (alanbechtold@sysop.com) @ 11/18/1998 12:48 - Original Problem Detail:
Dear sir or madam --
=20
It has come to my attention that your company utilizes the MAPS =
BLACKHOLE list to block purported SPAMMERS from sending E-mail to your =
system. While the idea might sound good I am writing to inform you that =
you will be named in a Federal Lawsuit if you do not CEASE AND DESIST =
use of this list IMMEDIATELY.
=20
Here is why:
=20
My company, BBS PRESS SERVICE, INC., designs and hosts Web sites. That's =
all we do. We don't sell access to the Internet. We don't sell E-mail =
accounts. Besides some E-mail accounts for our employees to use when =
contacting our customers, and one E-mail account we use to send out a =
weekly newsletter to our customers, we don't generally handle any E-mail =
at all.
=20
I am anti-SPAM. I advise all of my 5,000+ clients against the use of =
SPAM. Still, two have used it to promote sites we host for them.
=20
Naturally, this resulted in our receiving the usual barrage of E-mails =
DEMANDING that we remove the Web sites of the offending parties. Our =
attorneys have advised us that it is NOT in our best interest to do so. =
Removing the Web site of anyone for something they did OUTSIDE of our =
system, even if it was indeed PROMOTING a site hosted on our system, =
would in fact expose my company to possible lawsuit from the SPAMMER!
=20
I understand many Web site design and hosting services stipulate in =
their contracts that they reserve the right to pull any site if evidence =
of SPAMMING is seen -- but my attorneys have also advised me that this =
is completely unenforceable in court and wouldn't stand up to a court =
challenge.
=20
I don't know about you but I am totally opposed to being REQUIRED to =
take action against anyone for anything they've done outside of my =
control. Do we also want to become liable for pulling Web sites held by =
anyone who is convicted of a crime...any crime? Wouldn't this lead to =
the requirement of background checks, to make sure a Web site customer =
has never indeed beenconvicted of a crime?
=20
The ramifications are tremendous.
=20
Anyway -- I write to anyone complaining about SPAM from a client of mine =
(and they do track down the Web site host even if we didn't originate =
the SPAM) and inform them of my position.
=20
One person apparently forwarded my reply to MAPS. Even though my reply =
states CLEARLY that I am OPPOSED to SPAM, the kind folks at MAPS decided =
to add my company's IP to the list anyway. The problem is -- they won't =
TALK about resolving the problem. Their "volunteer" hung up on me when I =
called, after first being outright surly and rude with me. I tried =
E-mailing Paul Vix to tell him to remove my company's IP from his list =
but -- guess what -- my E-mail got REJECTED by his system because he =
uses the list! I finally got a message through by going through another =
provider. Meanwhile Paul Vix has not returned my urgent calls and hasn't =
been available on the phone when I do call.
=20
This is causing my company irreparable harm. MAPS' whole attitude and =
the way they create their so-called LIST is, because of my case alone, =
entirely questionable. And he has left me little choice but to file suit =
against Paul, MAPS and anyone associated with the LIST or using it in =
their products or on their services.
=20
This is where you come in. I am writing to tell you right now -- cease =
and desist from using the MAPS BLACKHOLE list on your service =
IMMEDIATELY. I will be including anyone and everyone still using the =
MAPS list in my lawsuit against MAPS. Period.
=20
You might also want to contact Paul Vixie and let him know the legal =
jeopardy his methods have placed you in. By comparison, the SPAMMERS are =
starting to look like the "good guys." I know they're not and you know =
they're not but MAPS must end here and now.
=20
I would appreciate your comments and cooperation.
=20
[Mime entry text/html removed]
MY attorney has advised me that it is not in MY best interest to stop
blackholing him.
I think before he sends an email, he should not only do a spell check, but a
contradiction check!
Cheers,
Matthew Holway
"Long Time Listner, First Time Caller"
Subject: luser of the day award!
Anyone else get mail from this idiot?
Alan Bechtold (alanbechtold@sysop.com) @ 11/18/1998 12:48 -
Original Problem Detail:
Dear sir or madam --
=20
It has come to my attention that your company utilizes the MAPS =
BLACKHOLE list to block purported SPAMMERS from sending E-mail to your =
system. While the idea might sound good I am writing to inform you that =
you will be named in a Federal Lawsuit if you do not CEASE AND DESIST =
use of this list IMMEDIATELY.
=20
Here is why:
Our =
Well, i personally dont think that his case will hold any water.
For one, MAPS is not preventing him from emailing anybody at all. MAPS is
not PREVENTING him from sending SPAM. MAPS is a service, that PEOPLE
subscribe to, to NOT receive mail from these people. It's up to you to
decide who you receive mail from. There is no law stating that you HAVE to
receive mail from everyone or anyone for that matter. If your customers
are getting legitimate mail blocked, they will complain, or move to
another service. If someone is at another service getting spammed, they
might move to you. That's how it works.
Yep. He even replied to my response:
Is it contempt of court if you look forward to the court case as a better
solution to expensing a technical seminar? We should just hold the
next NANOG the lobby of the courthouse, then we can countersue for court
costs, and have him pay our way... and afford to stay in POSH hotels. 
Just a thought.
D
Anyone else get mail from this idiot?
Alan Bechtold (alanbechtold@sysop.com) @ 11/18/1998 12:48 - Original Problem Detail:
Dear sir or madam --
--snip--
This is where you come in. I am writing to tell you right now -- cease =
and desist from using the MAPS BLACKHOLE list on your service =
IMMEDIATELY. I will be including anyone and everyone still using the =
MAPS list in my lawsuit against MAPS. Period.
Tell him I'm using MAPS RBL, too. And I am using it precisely so that I
don't get mail from dorks like him.
Anyone else get mail from this idiot?
We're a stealth DNS RBL subscriber, of course not <grin> (I luv sendmail
8.9.1).
Alan Bechtold (alanbechtold@sysop.com) @ 11/18/1998 12:48 - Original
Problem Detail:
Dear sir or madam --
=20
It has come to my attention that your company utilizes the MAPS =
BLACKHOLE list to block purported SPAMMERS from sending E-mail to your =
system. While the idea might sound good I am writing to inform you that =
you will be named in a Federal Lawsuit if you do not CEASE AND DESIST =
use of this list IMMEDIATELY.
I wonder how he's going to find out just who is using RBL and who isn't?
Here is why:
=20
My company, BBS PRESS SERVICE, INC., designs and hosts Web sites. That's =
I understand many Web site design and hosting services stipulate in =
their contracts that they reserve the right to pull any site if evidence =
of SPAMMING is seen -- but my attorneys have also advised me that this =
is completely unenforceable in court and wouldn't stand up to a court =
challenge.
=20
I don't know about you but I am totally opposed to being REQUIRED to =
take action against anyone for anything they've done outside of my =
control. Do we also want to become liable for pulling Web sites held by =
anyone who is convicted of a crime...any crime? Wouldn't this lead to =
the requirement of background checks, to make sure a Web site customer =
has never indeed beenconvicted of a crime?
This is simple, 30-day subscriptions with mutual freedom to refuse to do
business with each other at every subscription renewal opportunity. No
contract breaches required and rapid cycling of lusers^H^H^H^H^H spammers.
We've never had a spammer on our site though. We make it *real clear* that
spam may subject them to >$1500US in clean-up penalties which we *will* hit
their card with first and ask questions later. Their other choice is to
leave us a $1500US refundable $cash$ deposit. No one has yet taken the
latter choice <grin>.
Wouldn't it be easy enough to ping each suspect network from a machine
that he knows has been RBL'd? Or (in the stealth scenario) send a message
to an autoresponder on each suspected network?
I wonder if he could subpeona the list of RBL subscribers in the interests
of naming them in a law suit. Not that I think he has the financial
backing to actually carry the suit out, but it is a curiosity.
-Deepak.
Look at the RBL site, a DNS subsciber it not tracked anywhere, except maybe
Vixie's XFER log files. Even the MAPs crew doesn't know how many
subscribers they have.
Put simply: from all the bounces he's getting from his SPAM! (The
bigger question, I guess, is how he's contacting people after that...
though free or easily-obtainable accounts abound, I suppose)
XFER or Query?
Last I checked, you needed to sign something to xfer the
zone...
- jared
>> I wonder how he's going to find out just who is using RBL and who isn't?
>
>Wouldn't it be easy enough to ping each suspect network from a machine
>that he knows has been RBL'd? Or (in the stealth scenario) send a message
>to an autoresponder on each suspected network?
identifying suspect networks would be hard, though.
>I wonder if he could subpeona the list of RBL subscribers in the interests
>of naming them in a law suit. Not that I think he has the financial
>backing to actually carry the suit out, but it is a curiosity.
yes, he could do that.
Look at the RBL site, a DNS subsciber it not tracked anywhere, except maybe
Vixie's XFER log files. Even the MAPs crew doesn't know how many
subscribers they have.
slight correction here: the subscribers number in the two hundred and twenties,
and we know exactly who they are. noone AXFR's the zone without registering,
or gets a BGP feed without registering.
the thing we don't know how many we have of, is unsubscribed users who just
add FEATURE(rbl) to their sendmail.mc files and never register at all. we've
estimated this to be in the thousands or tens of thousands just based on the
splay shown among query source addresses on the RBL.MAPS.VIX.COM nameservers,
but a that's pretty rough way to estimate this quantity.