Hi.
I have some big goals and a lot of enthusiasm but I need direction.
I'm looking for a mentor who can help me focus my career so eventually I
wind up working at one of the Tier I ISPs as a senior tech. I want to
handle the big pipes that hold everyone's data.
This is what I want to do with my life. I have my CCNA, and when I graduate
college I'll have a CCNP, and the ability to move anywhere in the USA.
Please message me off-list.
Thank you,
Tyler.
why not just apply as a tech at any of the dozen or so large ISP's in the US?
<http://www22.verizon.com/jobs/>
<https://recruiting.level3.com/ENG/Candidates/default.cfm>
<http://www.tatacommunications.com/careers/>
I'm sure some google-searching (or bing or whatever) would lead you in
the right direction.
What Chris said.... Get a job in the industry.. work like crazy
learning as much as you can to learn, get involved in the industry to
make connections.
-jim
Well, thats two mentors - and now one from the old school....
Why wait? Start Now. Use the resources Chris gave you & others you find,
take Jims advice re total commitment, and then weigh that in the balance w/
your academic path. (noting that vendor credentials are good for the HR folks
filtering the krill, but are not a reliable indication of skill or passion)
Look for an internship while in school. Something part time. Build little ISPs
in your dorm room using the VM tools and build/test complex topologies and
random failure modes. Pipe size is one thing, engineering in your sleep is
something else.
of course YMMV.
/bill (now too old/slow to run w/ the big dogs)
OK, so I'm not a mentor from a Tier-1, and I don't directly monkey with routers
as part of $DAYJOB. But anyhow... 
With great power comes great responsibility. Be prepared for high stress
levels. 
Also, keep in mind that unless you're insanely brilliant, three things will happen
before you get experienced enough to be a senior tech at a Tier 1:
1) You will have grey hair (at least some).
2) The half life of technical know-how in this industry is about 5 years.
You'll have been through several half-lifes of what you'll know when you escape
from college. Develop the skills needed to learn the next 3 or 4 Next Big
Things quickly.
3) You'll have learned that handling a big pipe at a Tier 1 isn't all there is
to running a network - and in fact, quite often the Really Cool Toys are
elsewhere. Sure, they may have the fastest line cards, but they're going to
tend to lag on feature sets just because you *don't* want to deploy
cutting-edge code if you're a Tier-1. As an example, AS1312 deployed IPv6 over
a decade before some of the Tier 1's could even *spell* it (find out why 6bone
existed - it's instructive history). I'm sure that MPLS didn't make its first
appearance in TIer-1 core nets either. And the list goes on.. (Hint - where
did the Tier 1's get the IPv6/MPLS/whatever experienced engineers to guide
their deployment?
I really appreciate the specific insights offered by Keegan and Valdis.
- Linking me places to apply for jobs doesn't help. I'm aware of who is
considered Tier I, and how to find their website.
- I'm in Kalamazoo Michigan, and I can commute up to 50 miles. I can't move
until I finish my Bachelors in Computer Networking.
- The job market here is bad.
- I do have a home lab. (Cisco equipment)
2 3350s
2 2950s
4 2611XMs.
- This isn't merely a technical request. I'd like support in this endeavor,
from someone who's 'been there', to tell me things I CAN'T Google.
Tyler.
Valdis evolked fond memories... (built the 6bone's first node! and was
part of the baseline mesh for over a decade, when it was dismantled)
wrt your home lab. you are at a disadvantage (except of course for
your certifications) in that the cool toys are not yet in vendor code.
consider augmenting your kit w/ OSS versions of routing code (I still
like zebra) and dig into fundamentals (ISIS & BGP interaction, MPLS, esp
with the still unstable OAM code - pick ITU/SG15 or IETF flavors -, consider
where the market is headed... look into dynamic discovery in HIP networks,
true mobility (not the mobile-IP that is current fashion))...
if you are still keen, I can put you in touch w/ some good researchers
doing dynamic BGP failover and over the Internet rekeying, if you want
to collaberate on things.
/bill
The problem is that even talking about commuting to grand rapids (next biggest city compared to kz, excluding bc) there aren't a lot of local places. There is a nice set of WISPs out there on the west side that may be interesting.
There's a few interesting things to think about here:
1) The core space has gotten "less interesting" in recent years IMHO. While there are still cool things to do, there's more interesting ways to think about problems.
2) A multi-talented person is more useful than someone who thinks only about networking or hosts. This also comes with its own perils as you may not fit well in places that place you inside a box.
3) are you at WMU? Any openings there in the IT/Networking group? What about KVCC, or others?
There used to be a more robust local community of ISPs out there (e.g.: net-link/corecomm/voyager). You may want to consider talking to the folks at Climax Telephone as well. They were doing some interesting things last I checked.
Learn about the difference between purchasing and leasing. Understand the business side of the equation, not just the technical. These skills will bear fruit when you ask for hardware.
Hope this helps some. The market does change quickly (but is becoming a bit slower in some ways) so do be prepared for the business constant of change. If you are unable to adapt to change, you will be left behind.
- Jared
Although it is outside of your current commuting distance, if you are looking to
stay in Michigan, you might look into Merit in Ann Arbor, or one of the major
universities. Merit has been around since the NSFNET/MichNet days.
Don't limit yourself to Tier 1's on the outset.
A lot of Network Engineers have worked at least a couple of engineering
roles before landing the one that best suits them.
Companies usually want to hire experience. That experience coming from
as many varied places as possible, actually has some value.
In my own case, aside from pure bit-pushing I have had retail sales
(electronics sector), technical support, sales, pre-sales and design
experience as well as the hands-on engineering of supporting
infrastructure (datacentre & rack environments, electricity and
environmental systems exposure, plus Layer 1-4+...)
The disadvantage in angling directly to Tier 1 and working your way up
within that organisation will be the potential lack of diversity in your
experience. The best thing you can do (IMHO) in lieu of moving to a
network-hub city for your hunt, is get your foot in the door with a
company that has a significant need for input at the network level, that
can help you get your start in terms of hands-on exposure to network
operations and management. It'll give you some real-world perspective
and it'll provide some of the experience that people will be looking for
when reviewing your CV. If you have that, are visibly keen, flexible
and continue to (visibly) develop your talents as an engineer, you'll
never struggle for work. You can pidgeon-hole yourself pretty quickly
if you narrow your skill-focus too far.
Mark.
PS: Accepted i'm not in the US, so YMMV, but nothing i'm saying strikes
me as generically unreasonable.
I appreciate the feedback so far.
I'd love to have varied experience with a bunch of different companies, but
first I'm trying to guarantee my first network engineering job out of
college.
Currently I'm studying for the CCNP, exam, with plans to do the CCIP also
(its what I have the equipment for).
Learning IPv6 is a good idea. With regards to a bigger lab I really wish I
had more money to throw at equipment. (I'm aware I can emulate & virtualize
up to a point)
I've looked at the career sites for Western, KVCC, Davenport, CTS
Telecommunication, Charter Communication and Stryker today, and nothing is
posted. How aggressive should I be at trying to work at one of these
places? I really don't have a solid plan for getting a job after graduation.
Should I sidetrack and learn Active Directory and Exchange for instance? It
would make me more marketable, but distract me from my goals.
Tyler
> I'm looking for a mentor who can help me focus my career so eventually I
> wind up working at one of the Tier I ISPs as a senior tech. I want to
> handle the big pipes that hold everyone's data.OK, so I'm not a mentor from a Tier-1, and I don't directly monkey with
routers
as part of $DAYJOB. But anyhow...With great power comes great responsibility. Be prepared for high stress
levels.Also, keep in mind that unless you're insanely brilliant, three things
will happen
before you get experienced enough to be a senior tech at a Tier 1:1) You will have grey hair (at least some).
Not at all required.. Although you may grow a few belt loops and maybe
ruin a marriage or two trying to get there early. Also, don't forget to
read, cert guides, config guides, websites, RFC's. Grey hair and wisdom
aren't mutually inclusive.
3) You'll have learned that handling a big pipe at a Tier 1 isn't all
there is
to running a network - and in fact, quite often the Really Cool Toys are
elsewhere. Sure, they may have the fastest line cards, but they're going
to
tend to lag on feature sets just because you *don't* want to deploy
cutting-edge code if you're a Tier-1.
Totally agree. I touch alot of routers some of them close to what Tier-1
would use. I also have a few friends that work in large ISP's. I'd say
their ultimate goal is to touch a little as possible which is usually as
unglamorous as it sounds. Also, alot of things are scripted so much of
what you touch may not be as fun.
As an example, AS1312 deployed IPv6 over
a decade before some of the Tier 1's could even *spell* it (find out why
6bone
existed - it's instructive history). I'm sure that MPLS didn't make its
first
appearance in TIer-1 core nets either. And the list goes on.. (Hint -
where
did the Tier 1's get the IPv6/MPLS/whatever experienced engineers to guide
their deployment?
Also, how many junior and mid-level guys leave a Tier I for a network where
they can touch things and then come back as experts. Also, the
intermediate job tends to pay for certs and training which is a plus.
> I'm looking for a mentor who can help me focus my career so eventually I
> wind up working at one of the Tier I ISPs as a senior tech. I want to
> handle the big pipes that hold everyone's data.
...
I'd say
their ultimate goal is to touch a little as possible which is usually as
unglamorous as it sounds. Also, alot of things are scripted so much of
what you touch may not be as fun.
Tyler, this is absolutely key, and absolutely true; if you really, really
want to get a jump in the industry, don't worry about learning active
directory or exchange (unless it's a particular hobby interest of yours);
instead, learn a good scripting language;
PERL is the canonical example, but python or tcl are equally fine
candidates these days. Most of the really big networks, whether
access ISPs, content providers, or tier 1 transit networks try to
automate as much of the work as possible; it's the only way to
stay ahead of the demand curve.
If you want to be a hot property in networking, you should have a
good blend of network skills, scripting/development skills, and
ideally enough system administration background to know how
to make the boxes running those tools happy as well. Being
able to understand the packet flow from the application, down
through the OS, and onto the wire, and then back up again at
the far end is going to make you much more useful than an
engineer that just knows how to get bits from point A to point Z,
but that's it. Being able to turn up a 100GE link by hand is
useful; but being able to write a script to turn up dozens at
a time--that's what networks will fight over to get.
(Also...echoing an undercurrent from several of the other
voices...set up an account on tunnelbroker.net, get a
v6 tunnel going to your house, set up a linux box with
your favorite flavour of DNS server on it; start learning
how to handle v6 DNS zones, the odd and occasional
challenges involved with dual-stacked hosts and different
DNS entries. And then start experimenting and breaking
things--some of your best understanding is going to come
from breaking your setup when experimenting, and then
figuring out why it broke, and how to get it working again
in the way you want. Debugging dual-stack networks is
going to be required knowledge by the time you hit the
industry; no reason not to start learning and using the
information today, to really get comfortable with it.)
You'll find that many of us are happy to answer intelligent,
well-thought-through questions; what we don't tend to like
are answering questions that are easily found through quick
search engine queries. If you've done your own exploration
first, and come up empty, chances are it'll be an interesting
enough question someone out here will be willing to give a
shot at answering it for you. But if you ask questions that
would be just as easily answered through spending 5 minutes
with a search engine, you'll find even the best mentors will
start to give you the cold shoulder. ^_^;
And finally...don't get discouraged; if you're pretty sure this is
what you want to do with your life, stick with it. There can be
some big ups and downs in this industry, but the chance to
build something really big that touches millions of lives every
day brings with it that huge sense of accomplishment that
only comes with achieving something on a truly global scale.
Best of luck!
Matt
Replying on-list, as I think a route for this desired target can be
neatly summarized (oh, networking term!) in the following list:
1) be
2) do
3) have
First, start by being the sort of person that might work at these
places. Don't know how or who they "are?" -- meet a few, interview
them, ask about their life, attent NANOG (student rate: $100/meeting)
and have a drink or three with them, etc. Next, do the things they
do--this may take a while. Finally, you can 'have' whatever they are
having once you've traversed 1) and 2), assuming there's a spot on the
far-side of this bet.
You can thank Janet Plato (a great ex-Ann Arbor/ANS person) for this
method. I hope she doesn't mind my paraphrasing here.
Best,
-Tk
I know I'm days late replying into this thread, but I wanted to highlight and emphasize this comment. IMHO, the people who are most in demand are those who know how to fix stuff when someone else does something bone-headed and then can't fix it themselves and it gets bumped up the ladder to someone with super debugging skills who can fix it. So don't hesitate to do bone-headed things to break your setup, and then figure out how to fix it.
+2 on working with dual-stacks and knowing everything you can about ipv6. From the questions we see here on nanog it's clear that there are a whole lot of people who should know more about how ipv6 works (and how to integrate it into an ipv4 network) but don't. When you graduate and are looking for that first job, you will likely come across a hiring manager who should know more about ipv6 but doesn't yet, and if you can position yourself as the person who can help with solving the ipv6 knowledge gap in that organization it could put you above other candidates with more "experience" but who don't know anything about ipv6, and get you that job.
jc
Another really useful skill is knowing what it looks like to be a
customer / end user of one of those networks. Sure, it's fun to crank
obscure BGP load-balancing techniques, but you also need to know where
the industry as a whole is going technically and business-wise. Tier
1s sell to Tier 2s, big enterprises, content providers, and consumers,
and they all need different things. How much is computing staying
under the control of the companies that use it vs. migrating out to
cloud providers and Something-As-A-Service? What happens to networks
as broadcast TV gets replaced by consumers downloading content? What
do you know about end-users from hanging out with other college
students that the old folks running the ISPs don't understand yet?
Some parts of the Tier 1 business depend on providing access to large
end user locations, which is more of an issue of zoning, real estate,
and geography; other parts want to scale to hundreds of thousands of
smaller connections.
When I had a job that was more in the field than my current position,
something I saw happening all the time was that people who worked for
a customer would get a job at one of their vendors, or people who
worked for a vendor would get a job at one of their customers. In
bigger companies, that may also be internal end users and service
organizations in addition to external customers. It's a big way that
you build the relationships that lead to getting jobs and to finding
people to hire. And yeah, sometimes it means that you need to go
learn technologies like Active Directory, either because you might end
up working for an enterprise instead of a service provider, or just
because your customers will be using it and you need to know how it'll
affect their network needs.
In addition to learning scripting languages, you really need to learn
some basic VMware, because operationally just about everything that
doesn't need custom silicon is migrating onto virtual machines. You
don't need to have a whole VMsphere N+1 system at home, but at least
install the free versions on a PC, build some VMs and some virtual
switches and let them talk to each other, do some firewalls, etc.
The certification business is useful for a couple of things - giving
you some direction in your learning process, telling people who are
trying to hire new coworkers something about your skills, and getting
your resume past the HR department so the people who actually
understand what the jobs are can see it (or at least keeping them from
getting in the way if you've made the connections through people you
know instead of through HR.)
This is a huge point. We've had a LOT of trouble finding good network
engineers who have all of the previously mentioned "soft" attributes -
attitude, team player, can write, can speak, can run a small project - and
are more than just Cisco pimps. I cannot explain how frustrating it is to
meet a newly minted CCNP who has zero Linux experience, can't script
anything, can't setup a syslog server, doesn't understand AD much less
LDAP, etc. Imagine, an employee who can help themselves 90% of the time ...
Finding the diamond that has strong niche skill, networking, with a broad &
just-deep-enough sysadmin background has been very, very hard. I cannot
emphasize enough the importance of cross-training. Immensely valuable.
Randal
And yeah, sometimes it means that you need to go
learn technologies like Active Directory
[snip]
I am looking for just such a person now. Good Juniper, some Cisco and Sysadmin experience with an ISP background..
I expect it will be immensely difficult to find somebody. What makes it even more frustrating is that just such a person was not all that long ago made redundant!
So if anybody is looking for something to do around London...
A relatively serviceable argument can be made that that guy who knows every
parameter of every command of every version of IOS ever shipped, and which
bugs are in which ones...
is like that cause he's an Aspie, and you're not gonna *get* the other stuff
from him or her, no matter how hard you try.
Luckily, by the time you get to the point where you *need* that person, your
staff is usually large enough that you can absorb some savants.
Cheers,
-- jra
It takes me years to find such people and when I do, I try very hard to keep them! I have 3 key people that fit the "soft" attribute criteria Randal mentioned, but with a premium skill set in their specific function. Good luck with your task Leigh!
Mark Stevens
