LISP Works - Re: Facebook Issues/Outage in Southeast?

Mailman List Mirror (Read Only)
2

I would have to agree, i am surprised that there is a single Cisco
3800 series router running test code of LISP at any content
provider.... which is all this is. Facebook made it clear that LISP
was an experiment, not a technology direction. I don't think this
example represents anything in particular. As a network operator, i
am afraid LISP is going to turn into the next 6to4 .. an interesting
idea that causes more harm than good. Sorry to the fans of 6to4 and
LISP, i just long for the day when real IPv6 restores the real e2e
internet without strange trickery along the way.

Cameron

3

Hi Cameron,

It's working over LISP:

http://www.lisp4.facebook.com/
-------------------------------------

Wow, that's cool. I didn't know LISP had progressed that far...

Yes, LISP is good for you! :slight_smile:

I would have to agree, i am surprised that there is a single Cisco
3800 series router running test code of LISP at any content
provider.... which is all this is. Facebook made it clear that LISP
was an experiment, not a technology direction. I don't think this
example represents anything in particular. As a network operator, i
am afraid LISP is going to turn into the next 6to4 .. an interesting
idea that causes more harm than good. Sorry to the fans of 6to4 and
LISP, i just long for the day when real IPv6 restores the real e2e
internet without strange trickery along the way.

There is a huge difference between using LISP and 6to4 that you're not considering here.

6to4 was specifically invented to solve the particular problem of IPv6/IPv4 transition. That is its sole purpose for existence.

LISP was not invented to solve this problem - it was invented to address a much broader set of problems that neither IPv4 or IPv6 address (e.g. overloaded address semantics, multi-homing simplicity, IP mobility, and address portability).

The fact that LISP does help in IPv6 Transition solutions (due to its inherent AF agnostic design), is compelling. As you say, real edge 2 edge is the goal - and LISP helps here, regardless of the AF. (you'll will still want to do multi-homing in IPv6, and ingress TE, and mobility, etc.).

So it won't have the the same fate as 6to4.

Kind regards,

Job Snijders

4

Hi Cameron,

It's working over LISP:

http://www.lisp4.facebook.com/
-------------------------------------

Wow, that's cool. I didn't know LISP had progressed that far...

Yes, LISP is good for you! :slight_smile:

I would have to agree, i am surprised that there is a single Cisco
3800 series router running test code of LISP at any content
provider.... which is all this is. Facebook made it clear that LISP
was an experiment, not a technology direction. I don't think this
example represents anything in particular. As a network operator, i
am afraid LISP is going to turn into the next 6to4 .. an interesting
idea that causes more harm than good. Sorry to the fans of 6to4 and
LISP, i just long for the day when real IPv6 restores the real e2e
internet without strange trickery along the way.

There is a huge difference between using LISP and 6to4 that you're not considering here.

Agreed, my context for the comment was narrow.

6to4 was specifically invented to solve the particular problem of IPv6/IPv4 transition. That is its sole purpose for existence.

LISP was not invented to solve this problem - it was invented to address a much broader set of problems that neither IPv4 or IPv6 address (e.g. overloaded address semantics, multi-homing simplicity, IP mobility, and address portability).

The fact that LISP does help in IPv6 Transition solutions (due to its inherent AF agnostic design), is compelling. As you say, real edge 2 edge is the goal - and LISP helps here, regardless of the AF. (you'll will still want to do multi-homing in IPv6, and ingress TE, and mobility, etc.).

Sorry, when i said e2e w.r.t IPv6 i was talking about end to end, not
edge to edge. I think there is a big difference.

There are a lot of solutions in this space, and no clear winner is the
official outcome, for now.

IMHO, ILNP is the more interesting solution and avoids expensive
encapsulation and questionable assumptions about ISP MTU, all my ISP
links are GigE and 10GigE and they are all set to default 1500 bytes
... good or bad, this is just how they roll off the line from every
ISP in every city i buy transit... and LISP tunnels do not work so
well with 1500 byte MTU.

The only real take away here is that routers will continue to route on
the internet, for now. They even route IPv6 well, today.

Cameron

5

Dear Cameron,

The fact that LISP does help in IPv6 Transition solutions (due to its

inherent AF agnostic design), is compelling. As you say, real edge 2 edge is
the goal - and LISP helps here, regardless of the AF. (you'll will still
want to do multi-homing in IPv6, and ingress TE, and mobility, etc.).

Sorry, when i said e2e w.r.t IPv6 i was talking about end to end, not
edge to edge. I think there is a big difference.

Oops, i meant end to end too, don't know why I typed edge2edge. :slight_smile:

IMHO, ILNP is the more interesting solution and avoids expensive
encapsulation and questionable assumptions about ISP MTU, all my ISP
links are GigE and 10GigE and they are all set to default 1500 bytes
... good or bad, this is just how they roll off the line from every
ISP in every city i buy transit... and LISP tunnels do not work so
well with 1500 byte MTU.

I beg to differ, LISP works excellent with 1500 byte MTU. But you point out
a significant aspect of LISP; hosts behind LISP rely a bit on path MTU
discovery, with all it's benefits and drawbacks. But that's not a show
stopper i've seen on the lisp beta network. We live in a world where PMTUD
is daily practice, ILNP will not make PMTUD go away.

My major concern with ILNP is that eventually all hosts need to be
upgraded/changed to take advantage of ILNP. If we take a hard look at
something like SCTP... it never was really populair in the wild even though
it's in the Linux kernel. I'd rather load new software on hundreds CPE's
then change ten thousands of hosts, with all variations, versions,
servicepacks. Another example: the rate at which IPv6 has been adopted in
operating systems is horrible, we cannot wait another 10 or so years.

So I actually consider it one of the best features of LISP that hosts don't
need to be changed and the scope has been reduced to just the 'edge' or
'CPE'. In this sense one might even consider LISP to be more backwards
compatible then ILNP. :slight_smile:

Last, ILNP has no viable plan for IPv4, an address family we cannot easily
discard. The critique in draft-irtf-rrg-recommendation-14 on ILNP's hIPv4 is
heavy, and can be summerized with: "It appears that hIPv4 involves major
practical difficulties which mean that in its current form it is not
suitable for IETF development.."

Kind regards,

Job Snijders

6

Dear Cameron & everybody,

The fact that LISP does help in IPv6 Transition solutions (due to its
inherent AF agnostic design), is compelling. As you say, real end 2 end is
the goal - and LISP helps here, regardless of the AF. (you'll will still
want to do multi-homing in IPv6, and ingress TE, and mobility, etc.).

Have you already joined the LISP Beta Network? All you need is a
router that can run the LISP images (871, 1841, 2821, 7200 etc)

It's completely open, and the guys behind
lisp-support@external.cisco.com can hook you up for free, provide you
with everything you need: beta image, a block of public ipv4/ipv6
space and configuration guides, although it's only about 10 lines of
config. :slight_smile:

You could use LISP at home, like I do, and get some hands on
experience - enjoy the net behind LISP!

http://lisp4.cisco.com/ provides more information.

Kind regards,

Job Snijders

7

Sorry guys,

Have you already joined the LISP Beta Network? All you need is a
router that can run the LISP images (871, 1841, 2821, 7200 etc)

It's completely open, and the guys behind
lisp-support@external.cisco.com can hook you up for free,

The correct address is lisp-support@cisco.com

Kind regards,

Job

8

Dear Cameron & everybody,

The fact that LISP does help in IPv6 Transition solutions (due to its
inherent AF agnostic design), is compelling. As you say, real end 2 end is
the goal - and LISP helps here, regardless of the AF. (you'll will still
want to do multi-homing in IPv6, and ingress TE, and mobility, etc.).

Have you already joined the LISP Beta Network? All you need is a
router that can run the LISP images (871, 1841, 2821, 7200 etc)

FYI

There is also an opensource version (www.openlisp.org)

L.