Lazy network operators

NTL World no longer accepts abuse@ email. You have to go to a web form that requires javascript be enabled and enter all of the information for them. I guess that they got tired of processing the the abuse@ mail load and just bit bucketed it.

From the email I got back from them:

Please note that we no longer accept any network abuse reports at this address. Any reports must be submitted by using the following web form: http://www.ntlworld.com/netreport

Any reports sent to this email address will not be read and will be automatically deleted.

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:26:46 -0500
Chris Boyd <cboyd@gizmopartners.com> quoted:

Any reports sent to this email address will not be read and will
be automatically deleted.

Based on experience, it is arguable that not so very much has changed.

option [1] do their job for them so they can run a cheaper net, versus
option [2] blacklist so that we both run cheaper nets

I can guess their reasoning for this is they're tired of bogus complaints
(from address on spam/virus was forged to look like it came from them) or
complaints lacking the necessary detail to take any action...but the way
they've implemented their forms is not going to win them any fans.

You have to click through multiple layers of forms before you can actually
put in any details. None of the reason options are SPAM. And on my first
try, their site caused Mozilla to crash.

Also, I doubt this was a decision made by the "network operators", but
rather by the abuse department or more likely, whoever oversees it,
perhaps figuring that by having the web form CGI neatly categorize all
complaints, they can get by with less staff (or clue) handling abuse.

Chris Boyd [10/04/04 14:26 -0500]:

NTL World no longer accepts abuse@ email. You have to go to a web form
that requires javascript be enabled and enter all of the information
for them. I guess that they got tired of processing the the abuse@
mail load and just bit bucketed it.

NTL peers at Linx, right? I'm sure somebody's mentioned
http://www.linx.net/noncore/bcp/ube-bcp.html to them?

  srs

Should anonymous use of the Internet be eliminated so all forms
of abuse can be tracked and dealt with?

  Exception
  An exception to sections (2) and (3) arises in the case of a system run
  to deliberately hide the source of email - often called an "anon
  server". "Anon servers" are used to preserve anonymity where, for
  example, someone seeks help from a group supporting victims of abuse or
  wishes to express political views in a country that may punish dissent.

  ISPs or their customers MAY run anon servers where this is explicitly
  intended to be the function of the service being provided. They MUST NOT
  allow their standard service to provide anonymity by failing to comply
  with this BCP.

  However an anon server SHOULD NOT be capable of 'amplification' of email
  by expanding address lists and SHOULD have limiting mechanisms to
  ensure that the volume of email passing through the server cannot be
  unusually high without explicit system owner knowledge.

As long as there are tier1's who allow abuse as long as the checks dont
bounce, this will have zero effect.

exodus for example had a hands off policy, dont do a single thing until
law enforcement arrives with a search warrant.

looks like yahoo has adopted a similar policy.

-Dan

sean@donelan.com (Sean Donelan) writes:

Should anonymous use of the Internet be eliminated so all forms
of abuse can be tracked and dealt with?

of course not. however, anonymity should be brokered by trusted doubleblinds;
nonbrokered/nontrusted anonymity without recourse by recipients is right out.

While this might be a PITA for everybody, I don't see why everybody wants to chastise NSPs for this practice, especially NSPs that are/were telcos. Isn't this more or less the way telcos have dealt with abuse issues for decades?

I used to work for a very small (~10k dialup customer) ISP, and at the time our abuse policy was "if somebody complains, and you can find *something* in the logs, then lock the account." Then I went to work for a so-called "Tier-1" and learned in short order that this policy does not scale, especially when abusive customers with DS3s are waving around fully loaded lawyers.

-J

The problem with your argument is very much an apples and oranges
comparison.

Having spend the first five years of my network career at a "ma and pa"
that then got gobbled by Verio, and then the last five plus years at a
startup Telco/ISP, I can tell you, you see very different issues.

1> Telcos don't have ISP style AUPs, basically unless it's illegal, you
can do it on a phone without the carrier getting involved.
2> Telcos don't have the content variety that ISPs do. You can't
(practically) bring down a Class 5 switch, the SS7 network, etc with the
actions of one customer.
3> A single phoneset cannot be used to contact 50 million people in a
matter of hours to sell them viagra or other stiffy pills.
4> A phoneset cannot be used to hijack or damage another phoneset on the
PSTN. There's no such thing as a zombie telephone. PBXs might be
hijackable, but not a home phone.
5> The other Telcos don't get pissed when you or your customers use/abuse
their resources, they send bills.

and the list goes on and one.

While both the Telco and ISP are communications services, they are
completely different beasts in the abuse department (as well as support,
provisioning, billing, etc)

If your well lawyered customers complains, wave the AUP at them, if your
AUP doesn't allow you to disconnect customers who imperil your network and
the Internet at large, rewrite it.

Remember that getting cut off by your upstream is more painful than
dealing with a PITA customer. Remember that the Internet started out as
a community, and in our little neck of the woods (NSP network
engineering/operations) it still is, and nobody likes a (BGP) neighbor
who doesn't care about the others in his neighborhood.

As an ISP/NSP/whatever acronym they think up next, your customers are your
responsibility, and you, like a good bartender, need to be able to let
your customers know when they're a nusance.

-S

It does not scale, if you have people reading every single mail that
comes in, with now pre-parsing, sorting, etc.
It scales up to a point when you take steps to sort what is coming in,
take active steps to block abusing leaving your network, and implement
methods to detect it on your network before people complain.

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/dailystar/17393.php
  Overseas scam artists have hijacked a telephone relay system for deaf
  people and turned phone operators in Tucson and nationwide into
  full-time facilitators of fraud.

  Operators at Tucson's Communication Service for the Deaf call center
  used to spend their shifts helping hearing- and speech-impaired
  Americans make calls. But since January their workdays are dominated by
  Internet calls from Nigeria and elsewhere.

  The callers try to use stolen credit-card numbers to make big purchases
  of merchandise from American companies. The operators often suspect
  fraud, but they can't just hang up. Federal rules require them to make
  the calls and keep the contents strictly confidential.
[...]
  Spokesmen for Sprint, AT&T and Hamilton Telecommunications said the
  companies are aware of the fraudulent use of their services. But they
  said it's impossible to know what percentage of their Internet-relay
  calls are fraudulent, because the calls are confidential.

  They said they're working with the FCC to resolve the problem.

  "We're watching it, we're monitoring it, but privacy is key, and no
  records are kept," said Roberto Cruz, a spokesman for AT&T.

This is an interesting abuse of government mandated resources, but again
the scale and rapidity of it are nothing compared to the scale and
rapidity of spam/scam/zombie/virus stuff we have to deal with.

My point was that my $20 GE telephone cannot be made into a liability for
my telephone provider without my explicit participation, whereas a $20 a
month dialup (or $50 a month DSL, etc) customer can be a liability for me
just by being turned on.

Can people abuse the phone system? yes, of course it can, but the
criteria for response are much higher, and in general the nature of the
network (low concurrent session limit, point to point, voice only) as it
is exposed to most people limits the damage that can be casually incurred.

-S

-S

> ... Then I went to work for a so-called "Tier-1" and learned in short
> order that this policy does not scale, especially when abusive
> customers with DS3s are waving around fully loaded lawyers.

...
If your well lawyered customers complains, wave the AUP at them, if your
AUP doesn't allow you to disconnect customers who imperil your network and
the Internet at large, rewrite it.

on the one hand, i just want to say, this works. dave rand had written the
original abovenet AUP and while many lawyersticks were brandished, nothing
ever happened except that spammers had to seek their services elsewhere.
(note: some said that e-bay in the early days was a spammer, but i disagreed.)
(note: abovenet today is a different entity than the abovenet i'm describing.)

on the other hand, i just want to say, many isp's are in business to make
money not save the world, and if a stronger AUP would mean fewer customers,
then the management team is going to have a very hard time justifying a
stronger AUP to their shareholders.

while at MAPS, i often encountered spammers whose explaination was, "this is
the behaviour others exhibit and if we don't do it we'll be noncompetitive,
but if you can get the others to stop, we'd love to stop also." my response
was (predictably) "you have to do the right thing, right now, and it doesn't
matter what other people do, MAPS will get around to them eventually." this
ideological divide was much more complex than the usual "good vs. evil".

since we're talking about laziness, let's look at two ways in which we (nanog
"members" and others like us around the world) have been lazy, for decades,
and have therefore helped to create the current miserable "abuse" situation.

1. there is no single and widely used abuse reporting format that can be
automated at both the victim and responding sides. therefore ntlworld (and
others) would have huge costs in trying to parse and understand abuse reports,
and so they don't do it, and then they offer up javascript-based web pages
to try to automate their end, which makes it impossible to automate the other
(victim) end, and so doesn't scale no matter what.

2. there is no single, compelling, honest ethical standard like "the good
housekeeping seal of approval" in our industry. instead we have Trust-E
whose seal is used by abusers worldwide (their privacy standard still does
not require verification of permission, even though everybody knows that
SMTP isn't trustworthy) and other similar ventures, many of whom went out
of existence with the dotcom crash, or which are similarly spineless.

as individuals, we are not lazy. you want evidence? look at the dozens of
incompatible attempts to solve #1 and #2 above. these were legitimate, heart
felt attempts by qualified and dedicated individuals. but nothing "sticks",
partly because disallowing outbound abuse only reduces revenue and only
increases expense (while only reducing expense and only increasing revenue
for competitors), and partly because nobody wants to adopt an existing
standard since it's so much more fun to invent something new.

given solutions to #1 and #2 above, well designed and well marketed, it could
become possible to require compliance as part of RFP's and peering contracts,
and management teams worldwide would be able to look their shareholders in the
eye and say that compliance isn't noncompetitive because there are forces that
will make the competition have to comply also.

but while as individuals we might have lots of energy for this fight, as a
community we are lazy, and we'd rather think about next generation router
design than next generation abuse design. and yet it always seems to surprise
us when the greedy undereducated middle managers, salespeople, and lawyers
keep finding new ways to make the abuse problem worse. lazy, lazy, lazy.

Paul Vixie wrote:

1. there is no single and widely used abuse reporting format that can be
automated at both the victim and responding sides.

I haven't been paying attention lately, but wasn't there an
internet-draft on that a few years back?

2. there is no single, compelling, honest ethical standard like "the good
housekeeping seal of approval" in our industry.

A consumers' union for the Internet? Didn't ISP/C have some activities
along this line, once upon a time?

Heck, whatever happened to ISP/C? The website doesn't seem to exist!

> 1. there is no single and widely used abuse reporting format that can be
> automated at both the victim and responding sides.

I haven't been paying attention lately, but wasn't there an
internet-draft on that a few years back?

several. see <Extended Incident Handling (inch). INCH
isn't specifically designed for abuse but it's supposed to have an extensible
schema (or so i was told).

> 2. there is no single, compelling, honest ethical standard like "the good
> housekeeping seal of approval" in our industry.

A consumers' union for the Internet? Didn't ISP/C have some activities
along this line, once upon a time?

a "consumer's union" lookalike won't do it. individual endusers rarely
have choices about who they use for access -- they get it from a dwindling
selection of local dsl providers, or from their cable company. since they
aren't making buying decisions now, it wouldn't do any good to give them
reasons to choose one access provider over another.

where this matters is in the commercial sector, where there's an RFP process
for IP transit, or a contract process for BGP peering. to that end, what's
needed is something that these documents can refer to -- "member in good
standing of $FOO" or "complies with RFC $BAR" are examples. ISP/C wouldn't
have been a good example since the members of same who wanted to standardize
ethics were seen by the rest as moralistic whackos.

as i watch yahoo and others launch anti-spam crusades it pains me that if
they would simply have declared universal support of verified permission, and
set a date by which they would require it from their suppliers and BGP peers,
this would have further criminalized spam just by comparison. but since these
companies don't want the perceived costs of verifying permission, they're
stuck trying to criminalize "spam" when there is no difference, in principle,
between what "spammers" do and what "reputable companies" do. lazy-lazy-lazy.

Surely no coincidence then that their change in abuse policy occurs at a time
when they are cutting customer support by 30%:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/07/ntl_jobs_cut/

Theres a followup discussing their poor CS queue times:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/08/ntl_jobs_union/

so it seems when the going gets tough, the staff perceived to be non-essential
(indirect to the revenue stream) are going!

No surprise I guess

Steve

My point was that my $20 GE telephone cannot be made into a liability for
my telephone provider without my explicit participation, whereas a $20 a
month dialup (or $50 a month DSL, etc) customer can be a liability for me
just by being turned on.

Although Bell Labs avoided publishing papers about weakness in the
telephone system, it doesn't mean they don't exist. The Communications
Fraud Control Assocation has a decent publication on communications
fraud.

http://www.cfca.org/CCSP_dictionary_orderform.htm

They cover numerous opportunities for mischief which can occur with your
explicit, implicit, and even without your participation.

In most cases it is the equipment connected to the line (i.e. CPE), not
the line itself vulnerable to mischief. An answering machine with a
default remote access code, a cordless telephone without "digital
security", an insecure PBX, etc. The telephone network also offers
other mischief opportunites such as call forwarding, voice mail,
conference bridges, calling cards, third-party billing, collect calls
and more.

Can people abuse the phone system? yes, of course it can, but the
criteria for response are much higher, and in general the nature of the
network (low concurrent session limit, point to point, voice only) as it
is exposed to most people limits the damage that can be casually incurred.

There is a difference between crimes against the telephone system
and crimes using telephones. The Department of Justice estimates
Telemarketing fraud is a $40 Billion a year problem. But telemarketing
fraud doesn't necessarily reflect a security vulnerability in the
telephone system per se. Or at least not a security vulnerability
that can be solved solely by the telephone system.

I'm not certain why telemarketing fraud is that much different than a DDoS by zombies. The underlying network does not really have much to do with either other than supplying transport. And tightening security on the network layer wouldn't stop either from happening.

Since the major threat to networks these days is zombies, and there is very little you can do to IP to stop this from happening, why people keep commenting that IP is insecure....

Chris Boyd wrote:

NTL World no longer accepts abuse@ email. You have to go to a web form that requires javascript be enabled and enter all of the information for them. I guess that they got tired of processing the the abuse@ mail load and just bit bucketed it.

I'm late on this thread and I don't want to open a can of worms here, but...

I can understand the reasoning behind what they are doing, but perhaps they are taking things in the wrong direction. Our abuse@ email address is just that, abused. Our abuse@ mailbox gets probably 500+ spams a day with maybe 2-3 legit emails that we need to look at. Sure we could run anti-spam measures on the abuse@ address but that probably isn't the way to go since most complaints to abuse@ are forward spam messages which could be marked and then missed.

I think making a reporting page that requires jscript and such is a little over the top, but I don't think a simple HTML standard web form is out of the question. We've not gone this route yet, but we may head that way since I think the actual legit concerns of our abuse@ address are getting lost in the fray. Having our techs/engineers go through the abuse@ box every day to play hide and seek is a bit of an agonizing task that nobody really wants, especially at the volume it is today. If there was a standard that worked for this, we would certainly follow it. As it is today, we have got to find something simple that works for the legit issues and something that doesn't burn up so many engineer/tech cycles.