IP addresses are now assets

Mailman List Mirror (Read Only)
1

Wayne -

Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks,
so I'd advise waiting to review the actual sale order once approved by
the court before making summary conclusions.

ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a
public resource. Address holders may have certain rights (such as the
right to be the registrant of the address block, the right to transfer the
registration, etc.) but these rights intersect with additional rights to the
same address blocks which are held by the community (such as the right
of visibility to the public portion of registrations). The registry policies
(set by the community via open and transparent processes) govern the
intersection and application of these rights.

For this reason, ARIN works with parties transferring their rights in IP
address space to make sure that the documents reflect that sales of
rights are subject to the transfer policies in the region, including in this
particular case. A party may transfer their rights to IP addresses, and
such rights may have value to an estate, but this does not make the
IP addresses "property" per se.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

2

Why'd you have to spoil the fun? You're supposed to wait a few days, let the pointless righteous fury build up and then step in and try to do the firefighting thing. It's must have been all but a month since the last time this flared up, it's surely about time it flared up again? Wouldn't want anyone to miss out on the fun :wink:

Paul

3

Would it be correct to summarize the ARIN position as "It's murkier than Cerner
makes it out to be, and some lawyers are gonna get stinking filthy rich
litigating this one"?

:slight_smile:

4

Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu writes:

Would it be correct to summarize the ARIN position as "It's murkier than Cerner
makes it out to be, and some lawyers are gonna get stinking filthy rich
litigating this one"?

:slight_smile:

In any litigation, Counsel always wins. I often remind myself that
there's still time to go to law school. :slight_smile:

-r

5

It's pretty simple: you can write a contract to transfer IP
addresses in accordance with policy, and we are now seeing
most parties come to us in advance either to prequalify or
make the sale conditional on approval.

FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

6

Hi John,

I'm sorry to be thick, but can you explain "right of visibility to the
public portion of registrations" a little further?.

Under what circumstances might ARIN deny approval?

j

7

Joly -

  Requests are processed according the transfer policies
  <https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight>. If a
  request doesn't meet the transfer policy (e.g. the sale
  is not to an actual entity that has an operational need
  for address space or it is more space than needed for the
  next twelve months), then it will be denied.
  
  If you think that ARIN should operate under different
  policies in the management of the IP address space in
  the region, you can submit a policy proposal to change
  the policy as desired:
  <https://www.arin.net/participate/how_to_participate.html>

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

8

Presumably organisations will check this and fake the appropriate paperwork and come up with some plausible excuse for requiring the space within the next 12 months BEFORE they part with their cash.

It would be most amusing for somebody to buy space, hand over the money and then have ARIN deny the transfer.

So I do wonder, how is this policy is being enforced and will ARIN be investigating this current news item?

9

....

In any litigation, Counsel always wins. I often remind myself that
there's still time to go to law school. :slight_smile:

It may be too late. The glory days of getting a JD
and then racking in the money are apparently over.
I remember reading recently (in the NYTimes?) that
newly minted lawyers are having a hard time finding
employment, as the customers of the law firms are
pushing back on the ever higher fees, and the firms
are responding by a combination of outsourcing some
research, and using non-lawyers for other work,
reducing the demand for (and hiring of) new lawyers.
Exceptions noted for the Harvard grads due to the OBN.

10

ARIN, on many occasions, has stated that they have no authority over
legacy address space. They made this declaration in the Kamens/sex.com
case. I haven't heard that anything has changed since then.

Nortel/MSN was the first, big, public transaction. There have been
others prior to Nortel. There will be more after Borders.

Circuit City:

http://www.slideshare.net/Streambank/offering-memo-ip-addresses-92111final

Best.

-M<

11

Leigh -

  No investigation is needed, as I already noted the parties
  have sought out ARIN in advance. Note that original sales
  solicitation states: "Sale may be subject to compliance with
  certain requirements of the American Registry of Internet
  Numbers ("ARIN") and the court materials to date reflect this.

FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

12

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:[cut]

Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks,

[cut]
ianal, but the treatment of ip addresses by the bankruptcy court would
tend to agree with the definition of an asset from webster's new world
law dictionary (http://law.yourdictionary.com/asset):

   Any property or right that is owned by a person or entity and has
   monetary value. See also liability.

   All of the property of a person or entity or its total value;
   entries on a balance sheet listing such property.

   intangible asset
      An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a
      written document.

the addresses are being exchanged for money, in order to pay a
debt...how is this not a sale of an asset?

ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a> public resource.

imho, if it were truly a 'public resource' and managed as such, it
would be returned to the appropriate rir for reassignment, rather than
being auctioned off to the highest bidder by a (commodities)
broker...administrative and processing fees are one thing, but this is
pure commoditisation of a so-called 'public resource' by speculators.

i am, unfortunately, in the minority on this topic

[cut]

"Sale may be subject to compliance with certain requirements of
the American Registry of Internet Numbers ("ARIN") and the court
materials to date reflect this.

MAY versus WILL -- rfc2119 contains a pretty clear definition of each,
which i am pretty sure echoes legal precedent..but again, ianal, so,
ymmv, etc, etc

the speculative market exists and is growing, why do certain factions
of the community keep trying to pretend that it doesn't?

/joshua

13

If it was a RIR assignment, it's not "owned". It's more akin to a "lease". That said, there are documented rules/proceedures for transfering assignments. I'm not entirely sure they apply here.

Legacy assignments are, obviously, a very different story.

--Ricky

14

I guess I'm in the same minority in that I agree with you.

Note that "Asset" !== "Property".

The IP addresses in question are unquestionably "Assets" (albeit
"Restricted assets" or hard-to-value assets), but not so evidently
"Property". So, the original subject line "IP addresses are now assets"
seems accurate; it does not say "IP addresses are now property".
Conflation of the two terms is in the mind of the reader, and perhaps
that's what John Curran was seeking to clarify.

15

What about land? it's a public resource that you've paid money to
someone in exchange for transferring their rights over that public
resource to you.

That said, I think in the case of land shortages there is an argument
that land no longer being used by someone should be freed up for use
by new people. Although i'm not entirely sure how to justify a
"instead of selling it you have to return it so it can be allocated to
whoever has a need for it" policy without also justifying the same for
my house, which has spare rooms that I don't need.

- Mike

16

Land is private property.

Joe

17

In a message written on Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:28:22PM -0500, Joe Loiacono wrote:

18

Martin -

ARIN will maintain the registry in accordance with community policy
for all addresses and that includes legacy address space.

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

19

Any property or right that is owned by a person or entity and has
monetary value. See also liability.

All of the property of a person or entity or its total value;
entries on a balance sheet listing such property.

intangible asset
An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a
written document.

Note that "Asset" !== "Property".

reread the definition: an asset is property. an intangible asset is
merely one type of asset.

What about land? it's a public resource that you've paid money to
someone in exchange for transferring their rights over that public
resource to you.

land is a tangible asset, and has largely been privatised when it
comes to ownership. you can lease public lands, but when your lease
ends, it is returned to the "owner" (the government), and any
"improvements" (if allowed at all) are torn down or given over.
sometimes you can sublet your lease, but this doesn't make it a new
contract or change the original terms.

That said, I think in the case of land shortages there is an argument
that land no longer being used by someone should be freed up for use
by new people.

this starts drifting into a philosophical debate on privatisation and
the use, control, and management of 'the commons' (land, water, air,
etc.) and something which is largely (further) offtopic for this list.

but, i digress...and the various dead horses here have all been beaten
beyond recognition

/joshua

20

  intangible asset
     An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a
     written document.

the addresses are being exchanged for money, in order to pay a
debt...how is this not a sale of an asset?

Joshua -

  Rights to addresses (in the registration database) are being
  transferred for money. Those rights may indeed be "assets"
  (although that's likely a question better suited for lawyers)

  Perhaps "Rights to IP addresses can be sold!" would be a better
  title, but it's not exactly newsworthy since we've all known that
  for some time: <Psst - Interested in Some Lightly-Used IP Addresses?;

ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a> public resource.

imho, if it were truly a 'public resource' and managed as such, it
would be returned to the appropriate rir for reassignment, rather than
being auctioned off to the highest bidder by a (commodities) broker...

Agreed. However, attempting fairly to administrate a resource
as it becomes increasingly scarce is quite problematic, and yet
there is a real need emerging among network operators for IPv4
space as the regional free pool diminishes. The limited market
mechanism provides a motivation for getting these resources back
into use, while still taking the communities need for accurate
record keeping and avoidance of deaggregation into consideration.

administrative and processing fees are one thing, but this is
pure commoditisation of a so-called 'public resource' by speculators.

i am, unfortunately, in the minority on this topic

It shouldn't be speculators, unless they're particularly skilled
at faking the operational need for the space they're obtaining
and willing to risk losing the entire investment if detected.

[cut]

"Sale may be subject to compliance with certain requirements of
the American Registry of Internet Numbers ("ARIN") and the court
materials to date reflect this.

MAY versus WILL -- rfc2119 contains a pretty clear definition of each,
which i am pretty sure echoes legal precedent..but again, ianal, so,
ymmv, etc, etc

I referenced that language because it is in the public solicitation.
Actual legal documents on transfers to date have been quite explicit
on this point.

the speculative market exists and is growing, why do certain factions
of the community keep trying to pretend that it doesn't?

Again, there is a limited market emerging in IPv4 address space, one
in which the transfer recipient must demonstrate an operational need.

Attempting to use the transfer policy to speculate would be rather
adventurous (since one must agree contractually to compliance with
the registry policies and to the veracity of the information on the
transfer request...) That doesn't mean it won't happen, only that we
hope that it will not get materially in the way of service providers
who do need additional address space.

FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN