Initial Route Server Stats for MAE-East

I've only been to one IETF but wasn't the IPPM (IP porvider metric) group
working on just such a problem? Basically attacking how we measure
performance on an internet? Did the group come up with anything?

  I deal with people every day that *insist* that pinging a router (yes, we're
talking Cisco's in this case) is "a good enough indication for me" that "your
routers are dropping X% of my packets". Sometimes it turns out to be true and
I find the problem. Many times, it's just not so. That begs the question:
How do I determine whether or not I have packet loss or delay on my network
(and be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt)? Does FTPing a 50M file
across the network tell me? Does a 10,000 packet ping tell me?

  My point for interjecting here is to ask:

Has anyone come up with *any* way to measure network performance (packet
loss, throughput, delay) other than ping and traceroute?

  I understand Mike's comments on defining *what* we really want to measure
and I'm all for trying to help define it. I ask these questions because I'd
really like to find answers, not to stir the coals even more.