Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC

Once again, we have a tempest in a teapot. And once again this "tempest" is
just a means of obscuring the real problem. Speculators aren't the
problem. They are just a scapegoat.

I'm probably going about this the wrong way by arguing the details of
speculation, instead of getting people to focus on the real problems of
performance and management.

But Internic isn't very forthcoming in how they manage their systems. Even
so, I think I could run an automated database service for very little cost
per transaction. On the order of hundreths of a cent per transaction.
Charging $35 means means that one can make many, many thousands of
non-revenue transactions per revenue generating transaction. So I'll make
the claim that if Internic can't do it for a comparable cost, that isn't
justification for restrictions on the user community. You all remember
when Internic was formed, and registrations were going to cost money, that
many people thought $50.00 a year was outrageously high, right?

There is a key difference, and that is that stock speculators pay for the
right to speculate, so the system can afford to scale to meet the
increased volume.

Actually, quite a few stock speculators don't pay for the privilege. Many
speculators are stock brokers or floor traders who speculate cost free
(other than the cost of the stocks they buy). And you should note that now
that the stock exchanges are now nearly fully automated (though much less
so than Internic), discount brokerages now charge less than Internic.
Trading never stops now. Again, I think a first class, high availability,
high security database service can be operated without significant per
transaction costs.

Indeed, it is a damning indictment of Internic that stock brokerages charge
less, yet provide more secure, and more highly available computer services.

You also assume that domain speculators are the only ones who register more
domains than they pay for. They aren't. I'll bet many here have
registered domains that they later didn't want and didn't pay for.

Further, speculators ultimately pay for the domains they sell. What you
are really complaining about is that they register some domains they don't
pay for. The only reason you are complaining about that is because someone
pinned the blame for Internic problems on speculators.

The claim that "speculators don't pay" doesn't stand up.

Neither does the claim that speculators cause Internic problems. They don't.

I think Internic can afford to scale with the volume regardless of
speculation. Internic is a nearly fully automated process which charges
35.00 for a completed registration. I am going to go out on a limb that a
single database transaction costs very nearly nothing. So without doing
the math for a single registration, I think Internic *afford* a large
number of non-completed transactions for each completed transaction.

Speculators that actively try to sell their domains quite likely cause more
domains to be registered, and so they increase the Internic sales revenue.
I haven't seen any evidence that the costs of their non-completed
transactions are more than cost of their completed transactions. It costs
them much more to fill out the registration template and scan the news than
it does for Internic to (automatically) process the registration. If they
don't sell more than their time is worth, they won't be able to afford to
keep doing it. So it doesn't make any sense that they register to many
hundreds of thousands of domains per successful registration.

And if they generate a net-gain for Internic, thats a good thing.

The only speculators that might be able to register thousands of domains
with little effort are the ones who register on-hold domains. But they are
doing a favor for Internic, because they are collecting fees. More
importantly, they will ultimately encourage people to make their payments
on time. Thats a good thing for Internic.

Quite possibly, Internic can improve its efficiency with regard to domain
expirations and re-registrations. But that doesn't mean that one should go
though contortions to stop speculators.

I certainly don't want to give up the current system that allows one to
register domains with delayed or canceled payment and immediate duplicate
notification.

    --Dean

>There is a key difference, and that is that stock speculators pay for the
>right to speculate, so the system can afford to scale to meet the
>increased volume.

Actually, quite a few stock speculators don't pay for the privilege. Many
speculators are stock brokers or floor traders who speculate cost free
(other than the cost of the stocks they buy). And you should note that now
that the stock exchanges are now nearly fully automated (though much less
so than Internic), discount brokerages now charge less than Internic.
Trading never stops now. Again, I think a first class, high availability,
high security database service can be operated without significant per
transaction costs.

This is a very bad example -

(1) On the floor there are costs associated with clearing of the trade
(ticket). The cost of the ticket depends on the number of shares that
changed hands. For example, if the transactions are cleared by a ML
Professional Clearing services, the cost I believe is about $0.01 per share.
The second portion of the cost depends on what system someone used to
execute a trade - for example, SuperDOT matching costs $n. Attain is $0.005
per share. Bloomberg is $0.005 per share with $1.50 minimum. SelectNet is
additional $1

(2) Stock exchanges are *NOT* automated more than InterNIC. Some NASDAQ
books are automated more than others. As NASDAQ unlike NYSE can be traded
everywhere, in and out of the books, MMs it is not automated. The closes way
of how the NIC would have looked had it been working like NASDAQ, would have
looked like this:

  Two guys sit on the bar at 2am EST and one offers the other to
  register Microsoft.com ( yes, existing domain ) for $40 (number has
  no relevance to any price for buying the domain ). They cross the
  deal, and report the transaction to the NIC by 8am. NIC adjusts the
  database to reflect the transaction. Now you have two different,
  perfectly valid, domains with identical name. Would you like to
  have a system such as this?

NYSE is not automated even with a SuperDOT as specialist decides how the
orders are matched.

These costs are paid by the crowd all the time.

Indeed, it is a damning indictment of Internic that stock brokerages charge
less, yet provide more secure, and more highly available computer services.

This is also completely incorrect. Those who charge flat comissions, or
charge nothing, get paid a lot of money for the order flow where they would
always send your order to a specific MM even if that is not the best
bid/ask.

This is just to say please do not wish on us any portion of the internet to
work the way any of the exchanges currently work.

Alex

Once again, we have a tempest in a teapot. And once again this "tempest" is
just a means of obscuring the real problem. Speculators aren't the
problem. They are just a scapegoat.

I'm probably going about this the wrong way by arguing the details of
speculation, instead of getting people to focus on the real problems of
performance and management.

Well, I wouldn't exactly characterize speculators as "scapegoats"
however your point is a valid one.

But Internic isn't very forthcoming in how they manage their systems. Even
so, I think I could run an automated database service for very little cost
per transaction. On the order of hundreths of a cent per transaction.

You and half a million other people claim to be able to do this. Running
code please?

You also assume that domain speculators are the only ones who register more
domains than they pay for. They aren't.

Yes, they are.

I'll bet many here have registered domains that they later didn't want
and didn't pay for.

So? That doesn't prove that non-speculators do this more often than
speculators. Why don't you check with NSI on this?

Further, speculators ultimately pay for the domains they sell.

No, the purchaser pays for the domains they sell. The speculator often
does not.

What you are really complaining about is that they register some domains
they don't pay for. The only reason you are complaining about that is
because someone pinned the blame for Internic problems on speculators.

I would hardly say that is the only reason.

The claim that "speculators don't pay" doesn't stand up.

It stand up quite well. Having worked for a registrar that employed both
models (post-pay and pre-pay) I can state unequivocally that our empirical
data showed that because of speculation a post-pay model was undesireable
as the speculators on the system at the time were not paying for the vast
majority of domains they registered.

Neither does the claim that speculators cause Internic problems. They don't.

Demostratively false, that is why we are having this discussion. The
problems at NSI weren't caused from normal load that they expect. If you
want to argue that they have a shoddy, underpowered infrastructure, I
would tend to agree with you.

I think Internic can afford to scale with the volume regardless of
speculation. Internic is a nearly fully automated process which charges

Speculators that actively try to sell their domains quite likely cause more
domains to be registered, and so they increase the Internic sales revenue.
I haven't seen any evidence that the costs of their non-completed
transactions are more than cost of their completed transactions.

Think about what you are saying. The cost of a completed transaction is
absored by the fees paid for that transaction. The cost of a non-completed
transaction is paid for by the fees *everyone else* pays for *their*
transactions. Because you haven't seen the evidence does not mean it does
not exist. There is quite a bit of expense associated with mailing
paper invoices for example.

The only speculators that might be able to register thousands of domains
with little effort are the ones who register on-hold domains. But they are
doing a favor for Internic, because they are collecting fees.

Where do you get this wild idea? The only way this occurs is if the domain
is sold which occurs in the minority of cases, and then it is usually the
end purchaser, not the speculator that is paying for the domain. The
speculator serves no useful purpose in the transaction chain for anyone
involved save themselves.

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Coming to the ISPF-II? The Forum for ISPs by ISPs http://www.ispf.com
                (tinc)
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thank you all for making clear by your messages that the subject line
had a serious spelling error. it should be

    incompetance abounds on the internet

randy