Hi-Rise Building Fiber Suggestions

I’m in the process of choosing hardware
for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate any tips.

There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE switch on each floor using this fiber.

The idea is to cut the fiber at each floor and insert a switch and daisy chain the switches together using one pair, and using the other pair as the failover side of the ring going back to the source so if one device fails it doesn’t take the whole string down.

The problem here is how many switches can be strung together and I would not try more than 3 to 5. This is not something I typically do (stacking switches). I have fears of STP and/or RSTP issue stacking past Ethernet switch to switch limits (if they still exist??)

Is there a device with a similar protocol as the old 3com (now HP IDF) stacking capability via fiber?

I’d like to use something inexpensive as its to power ubiquiti wifi on each floor. Ideally if you know something I don’t about ubiquiti switches that can do this I’d appreciate knowing.

Norman

Hey Norman,
I’m in the middle of a construction project where we’ve got 50 data rooms in one building.
I’ve researched a lot of different options and we ended up with just home runs.

A couple of items to consider and think about:

  1. Have you looked into the incremental additional costs associated with more fiber? Smallest that we’ve seen trunk fiber is 6 strands of SM fiber. When you look at pre-termed fiber with MTP/MPO connectors, it might be worthwhile to have home runs to each floor.
  2. L2 rings IMHO seem pretty brittle. I know there are L2 ring products like Juniper BTI, which use ERPS and not strictly STP/RSTP to move blocking ports, and those seem a little better although it’s mostly statically configured.
    With one pair going up the stack and another coming down, what happens when a device in the middle releases some magic smoke? Do you have 2 devices at each landing?

Now that I’ve (maybe?) shot holes in some arguments, my personal preference, in a situation like this, would be to use passive DWDM.
With an OADM at each floor, you can easily terminate all the wavelengths at the home run location and have “dedicated” L1 paths to each floor. You could use the 2nd pair of fiber to even set up some form of link-agg if you so choose.

Another non-optimal option might also be something like GPON, although I’ve stayed away from that.

Passive DWDM would also give you room for expansion and you could have 10Gbe optics at each floor which would give you the full bandwidth at each landing.

Hope this helps. I’d be curious if anyone else has ever used DWDM in an intra-building scenario.

Thanks,
Abhi

Should consider DWDM or GPON and in those look at passive optical technologies that can benefit the project.

I’d say a pair of Juniper switches on each floor, with their virtual-chassis capability. Terminate the top/bottom floor of fiber 1 into switch 1, and the other into switch two. Create an LACP bond between each floors switches, tag the necessary VLANs, and put the VLAN SVIs onto the first pair of switches at the building electrical/telecom room.

The same thing can be done with MLAG across many switch vendors, but that will require additional configuration.

If you are limited on fiber runs, how about using 10Gb BiDi optics to
limit a ring to say two sets of 15 switches.

Tim

How would that work to solve Norman’s problem? That sounds like a lot of money spending, and setup time, for nothing.

Ryan

I’m in the process of choosing hardware
for a 30 story building. If anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate any tips.

There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE switch on each floor using this fiber.

In my experience with retrofitting existing structures, if you have access to the riser at each floor as it sounds like you do, you would typically drop in a new duct, blow micro duct through it with a branch for each floor, have an MDF or two In a utility spaces and them you have the ability to reconfigure the fiber as necessary to meet your present and future needs.

You didn’t specify if the existing fiber is single or multi-mode however it is unlikely that the was enough slack built into two fiber runs to make 30 additional splices so that approach seems dubious as a premise.

As you correctly surmise daisy chaining 30 switches is not an advisable network design practice.

Also, Juniper switches will stack over fiber. I have deployed Virtual
Chassis over multiple IDFs. The VC ports can be (and highly suggested)
to be in a ring.

https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/concept/virtual-chassis-ex4200-overview.html

https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/task/configuration/virtual-chassis-ex4300-configuring.html

I do not recommend doing that, it’s 30 members in a single stack. Mine was only two, directly connected to each other.

Treat your control plane like your L2, don’t extend it farther than necessary.

Ryan

Yeah… I’d regenerate every five L2 devices as well. Which just means going up to L3 periodically. Would it work for you to use the first pair for daisy-chaining switches on each floor that’s not a multiple of five, and then put the switches on the floors that are multiples of five into router mode, with a switch-group facing their own floor, but routed ports facing other floors? Then use the second pair as an “express” lane between the exit, floor 10, and floor 20, to keep L3 hop-sounds down and provide some redundancy?

                                -Bill

DWDM can be done fairly cheap. Some combination of MUXes and OADM modules along the way. One possible solution is:

First floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html
Every floor between: https://www.fs.com/products/70427.html
Top floor: https://www.fs.com/products/35887.html

Every floor gets 10G to aggregation switches on the top floor and bottom floor. The aggregation switches directly connect via the second pair.

After 30 add/drops you may lose too much power. There is a minimum 1.4dB per passthru and 1.3dB per add/drop, 3.5dB per MUX at the ends.

With these SFP+ modules:

https://www.fs.com/products/31238.html

it looks like you would have a 19-20 dB budget to work with. You may be able to get 10 add/drops without amplification.

But they have amps too:

https://www.fs.com/products/72284.html

I'd definitely contact sales and talk to one of their engineers so they can design a complete working solution for you.

Are you sure you can't pull more fiber? It may be cheaper.

I would use single fiber CWDM muxing and OADM, then you can get it down to 7-8 switches per fiber. CWDM single fiber has a max of 9 channels and the optics are typically less expensive.

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:46 AM
To: Norman Jester <nj@jester.mx>

Sent from my iPhone

>
> I’m in the process of choosing hardware for a 30 story building. If
> anyone has experience with this I’d appreciate any tips.
>
> There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE
switch on each floor using this fiber.

In my experience with retrofitting existing structures, if you have access to
the riser at each floor as it sounds like you do, you would typically drop in a
new duct, blow micro duct through it with a branch for each floor, have an
MDF or two In a utility spaces and them you have the ability to reconfigure
the fiber as necessary to meet your present and future needs.

You didn’t specify if the existing fiber is single or multi-mode however it is
unlikely that the was enough slack built into two fiber runs to make 30
additional splices so that approach seems dubious as a premise.

As you correctly surmise daisy chaining 30 switches is not an advisable
network design practice.

+1 to that,
Put your own fiber in and do a star topology to an MDF device.

adam

If you can go fully dynamically routed, Layer 3 only, this problem
becomes much, much easier to solve given the constraints you mention.

Among others, Ruckus switches will stack over fiber, but nowhere near
30 units. I think the max is 12 and I would not recommend going over
8.

If you need L2, consider running it on an overlay, even if that
overlay is just GRE. Again, rings are child's play if you can
eliminate the L2 aspect.

Joel Jaeggli
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:46 AM

> There are two fiber pairs running up the building riser. I need to put a POE
switch on each floor using this fiber.

You didn’t specify if the existing fiber is single or multi-mode however

On that note would you gents recommend single-mode or multimode fiber for buildings?

adam

Curious - blowing more fibre through the riser is a no-go?

30 floors worth of kit with only two spans is tricky any way you look at
it. It would work, yes, but complexity will go up quite a bit.

Of course, if there is absolutely no chance to run more fibre up the
building, that is that. But if there is, just asking...

Mark.

Only single mode ever.

Single mode fiber for all new installs. There are only few uses cases where multimode still saves a little money (100G optics) but otherwise there are only downsides in my opinion. Single mode on the other hand will always work no matter what application.

Regards,

Baldur

Single-mode, for sure. More predictable characteristics when you climb
up the capacity scale, e.g., 10Gbps to 40Gbps to 100Gbps.

We use plenty of multi-mode, but only in the data centre, between our
own kit, for racks within the same cage.

Between floors, multi-mode should be good for anywhere from 50m - 300m
(100Gbps all the way down to 1Gbps), but why risk it?

Mark.