A rather important turn of events.
http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=33733
- ferg
Someone should show them some of the 802.11 based "cellular-like" SIP
phones and ask them how exactly they plan to get good geolocation data
for 911 on those and the soft-phone in my laptop.
Who exactly will I be talking to when I dial 911 from an internet cafe
in Puerto Vallarta through my Virgina VOIP account with a California
Billing address?
Owen
You're absolutely right. I submit that if the US government wants location information for VoIP 911 calls, they should create an infrastructure that allows people to determine their location. Your example shows that this infrastructure should also be available outside the US. Maybe a satellite network that continuously transmit location beacon information which can be used to triangulate one's location would do the trick?
You're absolutely right. I submit that if the US government wants
location information for VoIP 911 calls, they should create an
infrastructure that allows people to determine their location. Your
example shows that this infrastructure should also be available outside
the US. Maybe a satellite network that continuously transmit location
beacon information which can be used to triangulate one's location would
do the trick?
I submit that I don't necessarily want my communications device or my
location tracked at all times by the government. My point is not the
need for location, but, that it is impractical to reliably implement
the traditional 911 model for VOIP.
The traditional 911 model depends on being able to make determination
of at least a roughly correct 911 service provider based on connection
point. (Cell site, telco central office, service location, etc.).
None of these are available for many VOIP services. I think that if
the focus were on delivering 911 service for fixed-location VOIP
systems, it would make much more sense. However, the FCC, so far,
does not seem to understand that this distinction is possible or
relevant.
Owen
Maybe a satellite network that continuously transmit location
beacon information which can be used to triangulate one's location would
do the trick?
I submit that I don't necessarily want my communications device or my
location tracked at all times by the government.
Well, adding a GPS receiver to a mobile VoIP phone doesn't automatically enable the government to track your location at all times.
My point is not the
need for location, but, that it is impractical to reliably implement
the traditional 911 model for VOIP.
I don't think VoIP is ever going to be as reliable as traditional telephony. But, neither are cell phones so that's not necessarily a disqualification.
The traditional 911 model depends on being able to make determination
of at least a roughly correct 911 service provider based on connection
point. (Cell site, telco central office, service location, etc.).
None of these are available for many VOIP services.
But there is absolutely no reason why this feature can't be added to VoIP. The first order of business is for the phone to know its location. For truely mobile devices this probably means GPS, but for less mobile devices I can imagine a networked location discovery protocol: a periodic broadcast or a DHCP option or some such. The phone can then tell the SIP server or whatever similar system it uses what its location is, and the SIP server can then make call routing decisions based on the phone's location for certain types of calls.
For extra credit the paranoid among us may design a system where the SIP server only gets to hear the location when the user makes a call for which location information is required.
Don't forget that we're in a transition period right now. Right now VoIP is mostly used as a last mile technology which is a huge waste of potential. All of this will get much more interesting when end-to-end VoIP calls become the norm.
>> Maybe a satellite network that continuously transmit location
>> beacon information which can be used to triangulate one's
>> location would
>> do the trick?
Skype and public domain telefones dont know about location,
nor will they ever learn.
The only place where somebody could catch a 911 call is at
a sip server.
The sip server does not know about the INAIC in Newyork
connecting me via tunnel from Germany. If they traced me
they would find my IPv6 tunnel endpoint in Japan.
Where to connect me?
The Newyork police probably does not speak German.
In Germany emergency calls are 110 not 911.
If they connected me to Tokio police, they dont
speak german either.
The only way out for me to immagine is:
A big wooden plate with big letters and with letters for
blind people to touch, telling everybody how to dial
emergency - or open the window and shout for help.
That might be faster.
Regards,
Peter Dambier
Who exactly will I be talking to when I dial 911 from an internet cafe
in Puerto Vallarta through my Virgina VOIP account with a California
Billing address?
Even more interesting, what if you have a heart attack and a
helpful local picks up your phone and dials 060? Normally,
in Puerto Vallarta this is the emergency number. Or perhaps
the helpful person is a tourist who knows that the worldwide
standard for cellular emergency numbers is to dial 112.
What will happen then with your mobile SIP phone?
--Michael Dillon
P.S. in England, you would dial 999. In Australia you
would dial 000. And in Russia you would dial 01 for the
fire service, 02 for police or 03 for ambulance.
How about an anycast address implement(ed|able) by every network
provider that would return a zipcode?
$ telnet 10.255.255.254
Connected
33709
Disconnected.
$
Cheers,
-- jra
is there a unique zipcode in shanghai?
are you -REALLY- arguing for the return of "finger" ??
--bill
s/zipcode/unique geographic identifier on the rough order of a square mile/
Cheers,
-- jra
I thought it was clear that I was not.
To expand: the problem is the VoIP client being able to *furnish* an
approximation of where it is, to permit the selection of the proper
Public Safety Access Point (or equivalent).
If each end-router supplied that data, through *some* easily queriable
protocol, such clients could retrieve it, and then decide (in some
fashion) where to send Emergency Services Request calls (or furnish it
to their carrier, if they have one, for similar purposes).
I Am Not An ISP, Either, but this problem doesn't seem *all* that hard
to solve to me...
Cheers,
-- jra
so, how does this work when you dial into the internet in (or use your
DSL) in newark and the termination point for L3 is in Philadelphia? That
seems like more than 1sq mile...
> How about an anycast address implement(ed|able) by every network
> provider that would return a zipcode?
>
> $ telnet 10.255.255.254
> Connected
> 33709
> Disconnected.
> $
>are you -REALLY- arguing for the return of "finger" ??
--bill
Not finger, but something like this could work. The server would return the physical address of the customer of record assigned that IP address. Kind of a uni-directional rwhois. The VoIP phone could connect to the anycast address and the ISP would lookup the allocation for the connecting IP and return a text string with the physical service location. The VoIP provider would be handed this location as part of the SIP registration (or other proprietary protocol used). In the event of a 911 call, the phone may check the location again to make sure the address of record/IP address hasn't changed before the registration expires. This would work fine for all customers except those who are mobile and served by a wireless base station which serves a large geographic region. If the provider was using some type of authentication before handing out IP addresses (I think most probably are) they could at least hand out the serving wireless AP location - some of the newer adjustable directional APs could even be modified to give an approximate relative location. I doubt that VoIP will be exempt from 911 regulations forever as much as I would like to see that. In lieu of the regulatory state going away, it makes sense to come up with a workable technology solution which is easy for IP providers and VoIP carriers to implement. VoIP providers could recommend IP transit players who support IP911 location services. Once it becomes a competitive advantage, the smart players will quickly adapt their systems to support IP911. I think we could do this within a couple of days with a few hours of coding. It isn't terribly difficult to setup. Those providers who don't use a centralized database for provisioning and IP allocation would definitely have a harder time, but it could still be done with some effort. The extra message elements of the SIP registration message could be used immediately once a standard is decided upon much as the TXT DNS records have been used for SPF records to fight email forgery.
-Robert
Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection
http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211
"Well done is better than well said." - Benjamin Franklin
Thus spake "Jay R. Ashworth" <jra@baylink.com>
How about an anycast address implement(ed|able) by every network
provider that would return a zipcode?
First, there are plenty of examples of ZIP codes which are shared by
multiple municipalities and thus PSAPs, but at least you'd get _someone_ who
could probably help, even if they needed to transfer you to a different PSAP
(assuming that's possible). Cell phones have the same problem when you're
near city or county boundaries.
Second, there are at least two states where you must provide location
information _within X sqft_ to the PSAP. In the business world this means
you need to know which part of which floor in which building the phone is
located, ostensibly so the police/fire crews don't waste time searching for
you if you're unable to speak. This is a nightmare for PBX admins, VoIP or
not.
S
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov
To expand: the problem is the VoIP client being able to *furnish* an
approximation of where it is, to permit the selection of the proper
Public Safety Access Point (or equivalent).
The fact is:
Skype is not interested where the client is located.
They dont care. Well, Skype is not a defined standard
but skype exits.
There are lots of VoIP telefones out. Do you really
want to call them back in to change the software?
How about tunnels? Do we have to rewrite all tunnel
software?
How do I know where that client with ip 192.168.48.226
(me) is located? NAT behind NAT behind NAT, some
packet-radio links and IPv6 over ISODE tunnels and
all that via SNA through an IBM company link.
No, my network is not really that complicated - but
I thought of a hamradio friend who is working at the
Georg-Von-Neumayer Antarctic Base.
Or simply think of an IP-phone used aboard an airplane
moving from Berlin to Abitibi-T�miscamingue (Qu�bec).
You cannot change all phones out there.
You cannot change all public domain telephone software.
All you can do is tell your sip office to direct any
911 or 112 calls directly to the Vatican. Hopefully
they will have someone speaking the right language.
Probably they will have the right personnel to deal
with this kind of emergency.
A buddhist monastery in Tibet would do nicely too.
I think that is where the chinese route their calls 
If each end-router supplied that data, through *some* easily queriable
protocol, such clients could retrieve it, and then decide (in some
fashion) where to send Emergency Services Request calls (or furnish it
to their carrier, if they have one, for similar purposes).
I know where my DSLAM is located. That is some 80 KM or say 40 miles
away from here. My link to that router is via PPPoE. There are some
switches, bridges and dont ask me what other hardware in between.
All that router knows is, I am one of 4K costumers connected.
It does not care where I plug in my DSL modem as long as I stay
some 150 KM around Frankfurt.
There are some 60 police callcenters within this area. I had already
the experience what it means when my GSM phone connects the
wrong one of them.
Of course whe have 112 service for cellurlar phones - only they wont
help you if you need them.
Just take the final two bytes of your ip and connect one of them
randomly. You probably hit the right one.
Why dialing a number? How about dialing an ip?
156.106.192.163 that is www.itu.int. They are the right
one to ask about telephone regulations anyway.
Cheers,
Peter
That would be fine in the US, and with some extension in Canada and a few other countries.
No, I think the service would have to be built using some real definition of location (such as GPS) which is offered by the phone to the called party on user command, and the called party then refers that to some clearinghouse that gets it to the right emergency service office.
Aw, hell, people; of course it's not a one layer problem.
But only being able to participate in nanog one day a week has clearly
ticked some folks off again; crawling back into my cave now. Thought
this was the NFL.
Cheers,
-- jra
* Peter & Karin Dambier:
Skype and public domain telefones dont know about location,
nor will they ever learn.The only place where somebody could catch a 911 call is at
a sip server.
Come on, let's be a bit more creative. Location signalling over IP
would be technically feasible. Your ISP does in fact know where your
connection ends. Even it's just a tunnel, we eventually get down to
layer 1 and bingo, the information is there.
Of course, you don't get the necessary infrastructure for free, but
you could use it for other services, too (like making identity theft a
bit harder). There are privacy implications as well. But I'm not
sure if an enticement to develop technical solutions is necessarily a
bad thing.