AS path geeks:
At the risk of invoking ire and eliciting comparisons to the
widely-reviled and growing practice of selling IPv4 addresses, I'm
wondering if anyone has sold legacy AS numbers for quick cash.
For example, NASA has AS23 among others, and does not use 23. Could
they help fund a Mars mission study or two by offering it to the
highest bidder? Or would they be lucky to top the $500 ARIN charges
for a 32-bit ASN?
How about AS1? Level3 uses a different AS. There's one nonpaying
customer advertised from AS1, and despite their historical involvement
creating the first predecessor of the internet, I bet DoD Network
Information Center would be willing to use a different AS for the
single prefix advertised by 1 now, if Level3 asked them nicely. Is
Level3 leaving money on the table?
I looked a bit for any transfer or change policy that might apply
without success. Given these are legacy assignments, I have a feeling
the POC could be changed without merger or acquisition, and I bet the
AS descriptive name could be as well. I know I'd personally find a
low AS number worth a pretty penny, if I could find a willing seller.
I recognize there's no practical shortage of AS numbers. BGP's
preference for low AS numbers doesn't come into play much. On the
other hand, a low AS number can't hurt at the human level when
negotiating peering or attracting customers.
Cheers,
Dave Hart
In a message written on Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 02:53:26PM +0000, Dave Hart wrote:
I recognize there's no practical shortage of AS numbers. BGP's
preference for low AS numbers doesn't come into play much. On the
other hand, a low AS number can't hurt at the human level when
negotiating peering or attracting customers.
I think you are confusing a "low ASN" with a "low router ID", or
maybe "low neighbor IP address".
For a refresher, see:
A low ASN has no technical value, as far as I know. Socially perhaps
some folks give additional respect/envy to those with low ASN's.
There's an old joke in the peering community, ASN < 3 digits, peer
with them. ASN with 4 digits, think about peering with them. ASN
with 5 digits, forget it. However, I do believe it's just a joke,
I'm sure more folks peer with Akamai (20940) than with NASA (24).
Dave Hart wrote:
AS path geeks:
At the risk of invoking ire and eliciting comparisons to the
widely-reviled and growing practice of selling IPv4 addresses, I'm
wondering if anyone has sold legacy AS numbers for quick cash.
I have heard first hand stories of folks being offered 5 figures
for four digit ASN's in the past (and they did not sell btw). That was
before ARIN started recycling unused short ASN's two years ago. There
was a three month period in 2009 where almost every ASN assigned by ARIN was < 10000 as they burned through the backlog.
- Kevin
Besides standing at the water cooler at 1:23PM on 12/3 telling AS123 jokes
I'm not sure a particular AS number has any relevance or any monetary value
unless there is scarcity.
In a message written on Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 02:53:26PM +0000, Dave Hart wrote:
I recognize there's no practical shortage of AS numbers. BGP's
preference for low AS numbers doesn't come into play much. On the
other hand, a low AS number can't hurt at the human level when
negotiating peering or attracting customers.
I think you are confusing a "low ASN" with a "low router ID", or
maybe "low neighbor IP address".
For a refresher, see:
Select BGP Best Path Algorithm - Cisco
A low ASN has no technical value, as far as I know.
I am exposed! I have never connected to a router that wasn't a
looking glass. I am not worthy... I did try to hide that fact by
doing a little research. I was fooled by:
"Prefer the route learned from the BGP speaker with the numerically
lowest BGP identifier"
and (mis)interpreted BGP identifier as ASN.
Socially perhaps
some folks give additional respect/envy to those with low ASN's.
There's an old joke in the peering community, ASN < 3 digits, peer
with them. ASN with 4 digits, think about peering with them. ASN
with 5 digits, forget it. However, I do believe it's just a joke,
I'm sure more folks peer with Akamai (20940) than with NASA (24).
That's both funny and helpful, thanks.
Dave Hart
AS path geeks:
At the risk of invoking ire and eliciting comparisons to the
widely-reviled and growing practice of selling IPv4 addresses, I'm
wondering if anyone has sold legacy AS numbers for quick cash.
For example, NASA has AS23 among others, and does not use 23. Could
they help fund a Mars mission study or two by offering it to the
highest bidder? Or would they be lucky to top the $500 ARIN charges
for a 32-bit ASN?
ARIN also charges $500 for 16 bit ASNs and still has those available.
I recognize there's no practical shortage of AS numbers. BGP's
preference for low AS numbers doesn't come into play much. On the
other hand, a low AS number can't hurt at the human level when
negotiating peering or attracting customers.
ARIN policy does not currently support the transfer of AS numbers in
this manner. IMHO, it shouldn't, but, there is a policy proposal to
do so. I suggest that anyone interested in this subject review the
proposal and join the discussion on arin-ppml.
Owen
(Speaking only for myself and not on behalf of the ARIN AC)
ARIN policy does not currently support the transfer of AS numbers in
this manner. IMHO, it shouldn't, but, there is a policy proposal to
do so. I suggest that anyone interested in this subject review the
proposal and join the discussion on arin-ppml.
Owen
(Speaking only for myself and not on behalf of the ARIN AC)
Thanks. My policy search was focused on arin.net, but I didn't find
what you apparently know. In particular, there's no reference to
transfer of AS numbers in the NRPM, nor could I find any policy or
procedure regarding updating POC or any other information associated
with an AS registration. Do keep in mind I was referring specifically
to legacy AS numbers, where it is not clear to me ARIN policy would
control, particularly in the case of a merger or acquisition.
ARIN is the successor registry to the prior registries that distributed
AS Numbers, so, I believe that they are subject to ARIN policy. I realize
there are others that have different opinions, but I really don't want to
engage in that debate here.
ARIN policy currently does not provide for transfer of AS numbers other
than through NRPM 8.2 for merger/acquisition.
Martin Hannigan proposed the following:
http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/2011-September/023136.html
which is on the AC docket as Proposal 158.
Personally, I do not favor this proposal. I don't think there is good reason
to allow the transfer of ASNs and I think that allowing transfers of IPv6
numbers is a really bad idea.
However, anyone with an interest in this proposal, whether in favor
or opposed should bring their opinion to arin-ppml.
Would you refer me to the current ARIN policy regarding transfers of
or updates to ASN registrations?
Updates are processed through the standard ARIN-online process
like updates to any other number resources. If you want additional
assistance on that, I suggest contacting the registration services
help desk by phone (703-227-0660) or email (hostmaster@arin.net).
Owen
You are discounting (pun intended) vanity and marketing. I am no longer surprised at what people will be willing to pay (sometimes astonishing amounts of) money for.
Regards,
-drc
what an AS is should know better. Also, would it really count? What if I
opened a small ISP in some carrier hotel and paid 1000 bucks for AS 1. I'm
not sure I'd want to sign a contract with someone dumb enough to think I
was the first company on the internet.
</lurk>
Since AS1 (BBNPLANET) was bought for around 666 million way back when, as I recall..
your 1k purchase would be -outstanding-.
<lurk>
whois -h whois.arin.net 42
(no idea if any money changed hands)
Regards,
-drc
Did you intend to say the first autonomous system number assigned for
use on ARPAnet?
Pedantically yours,
Dave Hart
On the other hand, if you are unable to sign said contract on *very* favorable
terms, maybe *you* shouldn't be signing contracts.
RFC 943:
42 THINK-AS [BJN1]
[BJN1] Bruce Nemnich TMC BJN@MIT-MC.ARPA
I have no idea which registry was maintaining AS number registrations
when AS42 changed hands. I suppose it's possible the current
registrant acquired or merged with whatever entity THINK refers to,
but I doubt it, so it seems likely at least at one time transfers were
reflected in updated registrations.
I bet Douglas would have been tickled.
Cheers,
Dave Hart
I have to admit I wasn't sure. I know ARPAnet predated BGP and EGP I
believe so I wasn't sure if there were ASN's then.
"THINK", "TMC" and MIT give strong hints towards Thinking Machines
Corporation, a once-famous vendor of pretty supercomputers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_Machines_Corporation
Best regards,
Daniel
Updates are processed through the standard ARIN-online process
like updates to any other number resources. If you want additional
assistance on that, I suggest contacting the registration services
help desk by phone (703-227-0660) or email (hostmaster@arin.net).
I was looking for policy, not actually attempting to change
registration information for a specific AS, and I think you've
provided it.
It is a common misconception that these contact points are only for making changes. The folks at ARIN are actually quite helpful in answering policy questions and helping folks navigate or understand the various ARIN processes.
My policy information may not be complete and may or may not address your specific needs. The ARIN staff is a much more authoritative source.
Owen
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_Machines_Corporation
Assets acquired by Sun Microsystems do maybe Oracle today.
-b