Crowdfunding critical infrastructure

The members of this list are, I think, much more aware tham most that
a lot of critical Internet software is maintained by unfunded
volunteers, and of the systemic risks that result from this.

I'm attacking the problem at the root, applying what the Internet has
taught us about decentralization and avoidiing single poimts of
failure. In part because I'm currently struggling with medical bills
(nothing life-threatening, just ankle surgery) but I've been worrying
about the larger problem for a decade.

Please read http://loadsharers.net

Of course I would like everyone on here to take the pledge and spread
the word in technical communities where they have influence. But
beyond that, there are several members of this list who are clearly
qualified to join as advisers. We're going to need that as the
Loadsharers network scales up.

Interesting concept, and seems like a good idea. What’s the end goal look like? Encouraging folks to contribute to specific individuals directly may be a little more difficult though, compared to, say, getting a legitimate organization going that provides (likely objectively-determined merit-based) payouts to the sort of folks you’re talking about. Is that on the table, or is the goal more to just encourage direct payments from one individual to others?

I think many of us assume that doing the sort of work you’re referring to will definitely result in the regular receipt of many prestigious, high-paying job offers. If that’s not the case, maybe something else we can do is to help find full-time employment/funding for folks who contribute and need it.

Hope your ankle’s feeling better soon!

The members of this list are, I think, much more aware tham most that
a lot of critical Internet software is maintained by unfunded
volunteers, and of the systemic risks that result from this.

Please explain. This is not true.

I’m attacking the problem at the root, applying what the Internet has
taught us about decentralization and avoidiing single poimts of
failure. In part because I’m currently struggling with medical bills
(nothing life-threatening, just ankle surgery) but I’ve been worrying
about the larger problem for a decade.

Please read http://loadsharers.net

This needs governance and transparency around it. Just launching a page isn’t going to get you anywhere “sustsinable”

Encouraging folks to contribute to specific individuals directly may be a little more difficult though, compared to, say, getting a legitimate organization going that provides (likely objectively-determined merit-based) payouts to the sort of folks you’re talking about.

Adding an organization in front of that whose sole reason for existence is to decide who gets what % of the money doesn’t make a lot of sense, mostly because it is just creating another layer of people who are then going to feel entitled to be compensated for taking the time to decide who should be compensated.

Maintaining a list of individuals who freely maintain important software, with links so people can choose to donate a few bucks if they like seems perfectly fine.

I don’t think anyone needs to be compensated for that. I think that you can certainly run a volunteer organization. The time required would be minimal enough that normally-employed folks could participate without issue in managing it. Having that tax deductible status, in the US at least, would be a big benefit and would also bring in institutional/corporate donors and the like as well. Non-profits have been run for making infrastructure software before and have been at least somewhat successful. ISC is an example of this. Something a bit more decentralized could work just fine, too, imho.

As far as just asking people to give to others at random, I think you’ll see less uptake and potentially issues with parity (for example, if you add worthy folks to a list, those at the top of the list will likely benefit more from random contributors just because they select those at the top of the list - so how do you decide who gets to be where on such a list?), and little if any interest from institutional/corporate donors. A formal organization structure with rules written down in public also helps to ensure transparency and if you set objective, meritocratic rules for the disbursement of funds and you keep things transparent around them, I think that would attract a lot of contributions.

Just my opinions, though.

It will be interesting to see, should this get off the ground to any
significant amount, if it turns into a bit of a popularity contest -
where a few get the lions share of the donations and the rest a
pittance.

It might be a good idea to provide the list in a random (and
frequently re-randomized) fashion to avoid the same names always being
at the top of it. I see that Matt Harris had the same thought.

I think it would be a grand thing if someone put together a visible list of critical Internet infrastructure, who maintains it, and perhaps “click to support” buttons for those that need support. Then again, such a list might present a wonderful target list for those who might want to do ill.

This also might be a great role for the Internet Systems Consortium. You know, the folks who maintain Bind, and already maintain a list of critical software maintained by ISC and others, along with a list of supporters, and a way to support some of the efforts.

Miles Fidelman

Matt Harris <matt@netfire.net>:

Interesting concept, and seems like a good idea. What's the end goal look
like?

Depends on timescale. What I want is for a growing number of skilled
engineers to be able to both (a) work shared-infrastructure problems
full time, and (b) be able to feed themselves and pay rent and
live normal lives while doing it.

If this *really* scales up well, shared infrastructure might become
something like a career path. Work on things of widely perceived value,
get lots of patrons, prosper.

We need to do something like this because currently LBIPs are caught between two problems:

(1) No way to monetize critical services

(2) Altruism doesn't scale well.

       Encouraging folks to contribute to specific individuals directly may
be a little more difficult though, compared to, say, getting a legitimate
organization going that provides (likely objectively-determined
merit-based) payouts to the sort of folks you're talking about.

I designed loadsharers out of experience that the centralized model has been
tried and failed. As the FAQ notes:

    It turns out that recruiting people who are both competent to run
    an organization like that and able to sustain the effort is really
    hard.

    Also, organizations that handle money have high complexity, overhead,
    and management costs. Remittance systems offer us a way to route
    around most of those costs. Loadsharers is designed to be the thinnest
    possible coordination layer over the remittance systems.

    Last but not least, centralization creates single points of failure.
    A loose network like Loadsharers should be less vulnerable to
    individual incompetence, political capture, corruption, etc.

I have specific instances in mind for all the organizational failure
modes I describe.

Also, I have yet to see any evidence that small central panels of
experts are better at judging merit than a swarm attack on the
evaluation problem in which people choose to fund what they like
and know about. That's called a "market". It works.

I think many of us assume that doing the sort of work you're referring to
will definitely result in the regular receipt of many prestigious,
high-paying job offers.

When that happens, it's actually a problem.

Let's suppose that someone were to judge I've been doing high-quality
work on security-hardened NTP. I get a job offer as a result. Is it
going to be to work on NTP? Nope, you can't monetize NTP, so my employer
will want me to work on something else that generates a profit.

Boom. We lose.

                   If that's not the case, maybe something else we can
do is to help find full-time employment/funding for folks who contribute
and need it.

What "something else" could be more efficient that putting money into
Loadsharers?

Corporate overhead for an employee is typically 100% of gross salary
or up due to plant costs. When you fund an LBIP through a remittance
service, the service takes a cut that's usually about 5%. You could
buy a lot more infrastructure support with the 95% difference.

Part of what the Loadsharers design is surfing on is the fact that
software developers don't actually need the kind of capital
concentration that the modern corporation is adapted to manage.
We used to, back when computers and communications were expensive,
but that was decades ago now.

So, if your corporation wants to do infrastructure support efficiently,
the most effective thing it can do is earmark some number of K$ per
month for the job, then choose experts from among their employees to
put it into Loadsharers, possibly acting as advisers to attract more
money to the things they can make a case are important.

Hope your ankle's feeling better soon!

Thank you, it seems to be healing nicely.

Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc>

> Adding an organization in front of that whose sole reason for existence is
> to decide who gets what % of the money doesn't make a lot of sense, mostly
> because it is just creating another layer of people who are then going to
> feel entitled to be compensated for taking the time to decide who should be
> compensated.

I don't think anyone needs to be compensated for that. I think that you can
certainly run a volunteer organization. The time required would be minimal
enough that normally-employed folks could participate without issue in
managing it.

I have founded and run three 501(c)3s. Two of them are still on mission 17
and 26 years, respectively, after they were founded and with me no longer
running them. I have seen success, I have seen failure, I have the battle
scars.

You are, sadly, wrong. When your nonprofit scales up past a certain level
part time problems turn into full-time ones. You may get lucky and not be
required to scale up that far, but it is not wise to count on this.

Usually you *will* hit that transition point. If you don't adapt to it,
your organization will fail. Above that point, when you fail to
compensate your people adequately, you lose them. They bail out or
they burn out. Altrustic drive can postpone that reckoning, but not
prevent it.

Jeff Shultz <jeffshultz@sctcweb.com>:

It will be interesting to see, should this get off the ground to any
significant amount, if it turns into a bit of a popularity contest -
where a few get the lions share of the donations and the rest a
pittance.

I'm aware of that possible failure mode. It's why I designed in a
three-way fanout. The Loadsharer pledge strongly encourages its
takers to to find and sponsore *three* LBIPs.

It might be a good idea to provide the list in a random (and
frequently re-randomized) fashion to avoid the same names always being
at the top of it. I see that Matt Harris had the same thought.

There is no one list, by design. That would be a single point of failure.

Each adviser keeps his or her own list. Loadsharers choose which
advisers to pay attention to.

Didn't anyone actually read the webpage?

Mehmet Akcin <mehmet@akcin.net>:

> The members of this list are, I think, much more aware tham most that
> a lot of critical Internet software is maintained by unfunded
> volunteers, and of the systemic risks that result from this.

Please explain. This is not true.

Tell it to Dave Taht, who broke his health solving the bufferbloat problem.

Tell it to Patrick Volkerding, who sweated to created the first Linux
distribution - inventing a whole tier of infrastructure we now take
for granted - only to end up in deep financial trouble because other
people make all the money selling the CDs.

Tell it to me, leading GIFLIB and GPSD and NTPsec and 48 other
projects and looking at having my life savings possibly wiped out by a
relatively low-grade medical problem because I'm not on anyone's
payroll.

Tell it to Harlan Stenn, who worked on NTP for over a decade and could
barely get anyone to kick in enough money to buy coffee.

If you do not understand the scope of this problem, you are *astoundingly*
ignorant. And probably alone on this list.

This needs governance and transparency around it. Just launching a page
isn’t going to get you anywhere “sustsinable”

Every loadsharer keeps control of their money at all times. Nobody is
makng decisions for them; the most the advisers can do is suggest
priorities. Everyting happens in public. How does it get more
transparent than that?

Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>:

I think it would be a grand thing if someone put together a visible list of
critical Internet infrastructure, who maintains it, and perhaps "click to
support" buttons for those that need support.� Then again, such a list might
present a wonderful target list for those who might want to do ill.

Which is why Loadsharers is designed not to have one big list at all.

As Internet engineers, we've learned a lot about avoiding single points
of failure in our communications networks. Loadsharers applies that hard-won
wisdom to the funding problem.

I did, but I definitely missed the part about advisors maintaining
their own lists. I believed they were all going to be contributing to
a master LBIPs list. - "and can choose which Advisers to follow (or
to follow none!)" did not make that explicitly clear.

My mistake was thatI didn't go to the Advisors' pages. I thought
they'd just be bios or somesuch, but the first lists are there as
well.

As is, one thing that grates a bit personally is that the two advisor
pages do not share a common structure - If I'm doing a comparison,
even unconsciously, I'm going to want to be looking at like objects.
Instead, I have your page, which matches the rest of the formatting of
the Loadsharer's website, and then I go to Dave Täht's page which is a
Patreon blog post, with a very different appearance.

I suggest that you provide Advisors with Loadsharer pages like your
own, to increase the commonality between list appearances.

My background is military - some uniformity counts in my worldview.
Maybe the lack of it will assist in splitting the loadsharers between
Advisors, which could be considered a feature.

FWIW.

Jeff Shultz <jeffshultz@sctcweb.com>:

As is, one thing that grates a bit personally is that the two advisor
pages do not share a common structure - If I'm doing a comparison,
even unconsciously, I'm going to want to be looking at like objects.
Instead, I have your page, which matches the rest of the formatting of
the Loadsharer's website, and then I go to Dave T�ht's page which is a
Patreon blog post, with a very different appearance.

I suggest that you provide Advisors with Loadsharer pages like your
own, to increase the commonality between list appearances.

My background is military - some uniformity counts in my worldview.
Maybe the lack of it will assist in splitting the loadsharers between
Advisors, which could be considered a feature.

No, I think you are right and had already identified this as a problem.
I just hadn't gotten around to nudging Dave about it yet. I'm
forwarding this to him.

I'm going to take your feedback as actionable advice that I need to do
something formal about making adviser pages comparable *now*, rather
than when I get a round tuit.

What I can do about this within the Loadsharers organizational design
is put up a "Best practices for Advisers" page strongly recommending
that new advisers should clone an existing Adviser page when creating
theirs. I'll put that up today.

I can also offer advisers the ability to host their pages through the
Gitlab repository I use for the main loadsharers page and FAQ, with the
same toolchain for making the HTML.

Which is, in case anyone didn't recognize it, asciidoc. With a Gitlab
CI job rendering to GitLab pages and a custom domain.

Once upon a time, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> said:

Tell it to Patrick Volkerding, who sweated to created the first Linux
distribution

No, he didn't.

Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>:

Once upon a time, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> said:
> Tell it to Patrick Volkerding, who sweated to created the first Linux
> distribution

No, he didn't.

Can you be more specific? Are we possibly having some definitional issue
about what constitutes a Linux distribution?

It is certainly possible you are right and all my other informants are
wrong, but... facts, please?

Off-list, preferably. This isn't a nanog concern.

Now, if you mean, the oldest EXTANT distribution, that WOULD be Slackware.

Perhaps an opportunity to collaborate with
https://www.coreinfrastructure.org/ ?

-Jan

This may have been an anomaly made possible by early .com $, but I'm pretty sure at one point, companies like VA Research / VA Linux employed developers who in various cases worked part or full time on the Linux kernel and other Open Source projects "as their job".

That you've developed/maintained software that's in every Android device, but haven't been paid by anyone for that may be the biggest flaw with Open Source / Free Software. Presumably, if you chose to stop doing that work and nobody volunteered to step into your place, Google (and others) would be forced to fork the code and pay developers to maintain their own versions.

Free software was meant to give users control of / access to the code...not create a parasitic ecosystem where some people code because they enjoy doing it and others profit from their work by packaging and selling it or things based on it.

Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>:

Now, if you mean, the oldest EXTANT distribution, that WOULD be Slackware.

I will revise appropriately. And ask my informants some pointed questions.

This is, by tge why, an exemplar of why LBIP evaluation should be
crowdsourced. I can't know eveything relevant. No other single
person or smal;l panel of expes could either.