X->One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder.
X->Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested.The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what
ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for
a class B) worth?
Regards,
-drc
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes
selling address space, who are they to say no? Apparently someone made a
case for a class B at one time or another, no longer needs it (for whatever
reason) and wants to pass it on to someone else and make a little profit in
at the same time. Now granted, I don't neccessarily agree with what they're
doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either. I mean,
lets think about this for a second.
Say I 'own' the fictional block 223.101.0.0, its swipped to me, everything
is in order as it should be. I decide for whatever reason to turn off my
routers, sell my equipment and move to the Caymans to enjoy the rest of my
life. I now have two choices, 1: Return my block to ARIN, or 2: Sell my
block to someone else and make a small (or large for that matter, I'm sure I
could sell it for a interesting sum of money) profit.
scenario 1:
It gets returned and some other poor fool has to jump through flaming hoops
and surive a pool of toxic waste to get a few IPs.
scenario 2:
I change all the records to point to them, swip it out to them, basically do
everything needed to make them the legitimate 'owners' of that block, they
pay me a nice lump of cash and we're both happy.
As I see it, changing ownership of IPs is no different than changing
ownership of a domain.
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-]
[-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-]
[-] 713-467-7100 [-]
I "kind" of agree. 
If I own a company, lets call it Acme, which has an
internet connection and that company is making use of a class B address
space it got from the 'NIC and if I sell Acme does that address block need
to be returned? Another example is if I own an ISP that has several
blocks of address space. What happens if I sell the ISP? Do the address
blocks get returned? If Acme has to return their address blocks upon the
sale of the company and the ISP doesn't on its sale, we've got a situation
which would keep lawyers in Lexus for decades. If the answer is that you
can legitimately transfer an address block if you sell the company then
there's a nice big loophole. Anyone with a class B for sale could simply
form a company and then sell it.
Now I don't own a sellable address block. I'm just playing devil's
advocate in what appears to be a very interesting quandary.
> > The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what
> >ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
>
> How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for
> a class B) worth?I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes
selling address space, who are they to say no?
But ARIN is *NOT* selling address space. That is not the intent of ARIN
nor is it the purpose of ARIN. With that thought in mind, try reading
through the material at http://www.arin.net once again.
doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either.
Read RFC2050. It has this statement
7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be
approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain
the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were
requesting an IP address directly from the IR.
I change all the records to point to them, swip it out to them, basically do
everything needed to make them the legitimate 'owners' of that block, they
pay me a nice lump of cash and we're both happy.
According to that clause above, you can't SWIP it out to them without
lying. Lying is wrong. According to the above clause, the new owner has to
meet the same criteria for receiving address space as you do. If they
did meet those criteria and if you charge them more than the cost of
applying for free address space then you are ripping them off which is
wrong.
Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting
Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049
http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
>
> > > The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what
> > >ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
> >
> > How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for
> > a class B) worth?
>
> I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes
> selling address space, who are they to say no?But ARIN is *NOT* selling address space. That is not the intent of ARIN
nor is it the purpose of ARIN. With that thought in mind, try reading
through the material at http://www.arin.net once again.> doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either.
Read RFC2050. It has this statement
7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be
approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain
the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were
requesting an IP address directly from the IR.
Read RFC2008:
Rekhter & Li Best Current Practice [Page 5]
RFC 2008 October 1996
"address ownership" policy, the organization would be able to use
these addresses to gain access to the Internet routing services,
regardless of where the organization connects to the Internet.
While it has never been explicitly stated that various Internet
Registries use the "address ownership" allocation policy, it has
always been assumed (and practiced).
Oh oh... 
For address space assigned, transferred or delegated prior to October 1996,
you've got a problem.
> I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes
> selling address space, who are they to say no?But ARIN is *NOT* selling address space. That is not the intent of ARIN
nor is it the purpose of ARIN. With that thought in mind, try reading
through the material at http://www.arin.net once again.
Been there, read that, and I still say they're selling space, leasing space,
auctioning space, etc. Fact of the matter is they are _CHARGING MONEY_ (not
bannana peels) for services rendered. Their services are to hand out IP
space and maintain databases, therefor they are SELLING space.
> doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either.
Read RFC2050. It has this statement
7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be
approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain
the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were
requesting an IP address directly from the IR.
The last time I checked RFC's were not GOSPEL, they are a good idea to
follow but are NOT mandatory. I could turn around tomorrow and create an MUA
that doesn't follow the SMTP RFC except in the most remote cases and whats
going to happen? _NOTHING_, why? because RFCs simply are not the GOSPEL, and
lets face it, stupid traditions are just that, stupid traditions, this is no
longer your cozy little lounge, there are millions of people here and just
because you got here first doesn't mean you're allowed to make decisions for
the rest of them.
According to that clause above, you can't SWIP it out to them without
lying. Lying is wrong. According to the above clause, the new owner has to
meet the same criteria for receiving address space as you do. If they
did meet those criteria and if you charge them more than the cost of
applying for free address space then you are ripping them off which is
wrong.
Since I've already gone over the fact that RFCs can be treated just like
toilet paper (ie. Netscape, MSIE, and countless thousands of other products)
I'll ignore your primary argument as worthless.
They met my critiera, not yours, no lieing there, and if they're going to
pay my costs, thats not ripping them off, thats called business.
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-]
[-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-]
[-] 713-467-7100 [-]
So, since I paid money for my car registration & license plates, I should
be able to sell my plates to someone else to put on their car?
If you ask me? so long as you reported the sale and did all the paperwork,
sure.. why not.
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-]
[-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-]
[-] 713-467-7100 [-]
Here in Western Canada, when a piece of real estate is sold you have to
pay a registration fee to the Land Titles office to register the transfer
of ownership. This registration has the same legal force as a deed does in
Eastern Canada. However, in spite of the fact that the Land Titles office
is _CHARGING MONEY_ for services rendered, they are *NOT* selling real
estate. I think ARIN is in a similar position with regard to IP address
space as the Land Titles office. Of course like any analogy it should not
be pushed too far, but I should note that there are situations in which
the land titles office will not accept the transfer of ownership for any
one of a number of reasons, thus they are applying a policy that has been
set down by the community which they service.
Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting
Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049
http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
No, but you should be able to let someone else use your car
without them having to get their own plates and registration. For every
silly analogy there is an equal and opposite -- sorry, silly analogy.
DS
So, since I paid money for my car registration & license plates, I should
be able to sell my plates to someone else to put on their car?
I believe that people with spiffy vanity plates have sold them. Why not?
But discussion about the Internet is always plagued with analogies.
IP address allocation is not really like the allocation of land, or
phone numbers, or pollution credits, or milk quotas, or typing paper,
or license plates, or routing table slots, or cocaine. It's sort of
like all of these things, but not completely like any of them. And
the nature of an analogy is that it pretends two things are similar in
all ways.
The best way to think about this is not: "IP addresses should be
allocated in X way because Y is allocated that way," "But IP addresses
are not like Y," "Are so!", but instead: "What is the current policy
on IP address allocation? What are the implications? What would be
the implications of this other policy?"
Analogies are a good tool when things really are the same, but nothing
hurts you like using the wrong tool. Since IP addresses are not like
other things, there is not much to compare them to.
Hmm, let's make your questions more complex - if I own ISP and this ISP
bacame bankrupt, wpuld it's address space be - selled, returned, owned by
it's customers, etc... ???
Good question! Would the bankrupt court consider the address space as a
sellable asset?