Bonded SDSL (was RE: ITU G.992.5 Annex M - ADSL2+M Questions)

Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed),
but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I
would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think
that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded
SDSL or not?

I have spent the past 5 years of my life learning everything there is to
know about SDSL. Don't ask me why, I don't really know the answer to
that question myself. I won't waste the bandwidth of this elite list
with dirty details of just what I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y,
but I'll give a link to an open source project that contains the body of
SDSL knowledge amassed over those years:

http://ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG/OpenSDSL/

To make the long story short, for most of those years I kept trudging on
my project, treating it as an ultra-weird hobby that no one else in the
world could possibly have any interest in. That persisted until 2009
when my project got noticed by two fairly major North American DSL
network operators. (Well, one very major and one semi-major, but I'll
spare the names.) Both of those had contacted me via my Open SDSL
Connectivity Project expressing interest in SDSL bonding. Both
companies were telling me how much interest they had in SDSL bonding,
how much it would help their business to be able to offer bonded SDSL
services at 3 or 6 Mbps, how many customers they would be able to sign
up for these services, etc. But when I asked them to back their
verbally-expressed interest with the tiniest amount of money or even no
money at all but a letter of intent which I could show to SBA etc, they
both went silent. We've been playing a game of cat-and-mouse ever since.

As far as I could understand the existing situation is that the SDSL
infrastructure already deployed en masse by the major North American DSL
network operators already has the capability to serve out bonded SDSL
circuits, bonding either in the DSLAM or somewhere upstream of it, using
MLPPP, Multilink Frame Relay or whatever else one can think of, but the
problem is with CPE. Apparently bonding-capable multiport SDSL CPE
devices are quite scarce.

Considering everything I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y, I believe
I have a right to say with confidence that I am more than capable of
designing and building a bonding-capable multiport SDSL CPE device for
any existing SDSL flavor with any desired number of ports (2, 4 or
whatever). But what I don't know, and what I'm asking this highly
esteemed list for advice with, is this question: is there anyone at all
in the world who might have a real serious interest in such a thing?

If there is someone in the world who would truly appreciate having a
bonded SDSL solution, I would be delighted to work on developing such a
thing. I would see it as a service to humanity whereby more use would
be made out of existing copper infrastructure in the ground instead of
having to dig more ditches to bury more fiber or whatever. But if there
is no one in the world who would be interested in bonded SDSL (or at
least interested enough to invest one dime into development), then why
bother...

MS

Michael Sokolov wrote:

We offer it, but practically speaking we haven't gotten much higher than 1.5
Mbps on the upstream.

Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed),
but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I
would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think
that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded
SDSL or not?

I have spent the past 5 years of my life learning everything there is to
know about SDSL. Don't ask me why, I don't really know the answer to
that question myself. I won't waste the bandwidth of this elite list
with dirty details of just what I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y,
but I'll give a link to an open source project that contains the body of
SDSL knowledge amassed over those years:

Michael,

I'm but a small humble ISP. We have sold SDSL since ~1996. The bonded
circuits have been terminated differently over the years, but I still
have a fair number of business clients that have SP supplied CPE that is
extremely affordable, and that require little to no work on our part.

Other than a few stragglers that I keep afloat on SDSL that require
fail-over, I've been trying to get rid of the dedicated copper as much
as possible, since I 'lease' the copper for the dry circuit(s).

We've reached past the break-even point for fibre access within our
area, and am at the point where the *very* 'ritzy' resi clients can and
will soon be approached.

The max length of SDSL that I currently have is 6.7 wired km. Bonded,
our longest distance is 5.4 km. Peak throughput over our longest bonded
(2 pair) SDSL circuit is 2.25Mb.

Given relative average, in the locations that I can provide optics,
there is a gain of revenue percentage that I achieve over standard
copper SDSL.

IOW, when revenue for a bonded SDSL circuit is $285 and I pay $49.40 per
circuit for the four wire copper, things begin to look more attractive
when I pay *nothing* for the dark fibre, but am able to provide multiple
times the bandwidth at the same price to the client :wink:

fwiw, for bonded SDSL, we have currently:

- Symmetric GoWide units deployed (both on the PE and CPE) that
inherently manage two-pair which requires but one switch port and no
configuration. Aggregates internally.

- an 'Elastic' rack that requires a bit more setup on both ends.
Terminate into a vlan on a switch to aggregate properly. A 'setup' fee
covers this one-time fix. Remember, small ISP, I'm not used to scaling
human resources :wink:

- multiple other stand-alone SDSL modem types (dslam/non-dslam, such as
PairGain etc)

- Copper Mountain

BTW, while on topic, if you know anyone who wants a fully shelved and
carded Copper Mountain CE200 dslam w/ dual power supplies, let me know :wink:

Steve

Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed),
but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I
would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think
that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded
SDSL or not?

Not only is there interest, it is actually seeing significant use - at
least here in Norway. Typical case is bonding 2 or 4 SHDSL links for a
total capacity of 4 or 8 Mbps.

Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no

sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:

Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed),
but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I
would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think
that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded
SDSL or not?

Not only is there interest, it is actually seeing significant use - at
least here in Norway. Typical case is bonding 2 or 4 SHDSL links for a
total capacity of 4 or 8 Mbps.

Out of curiosity, in Norway, who owns the copper? What is your
revenue/lease cost ratio?

off-list if too far off topic. I'm just curious.

I'm about the Toronto Canada area, and I'm just looking at the rough
lease cost per km. Be interesting to see if the same figure shows up
elsewhere, or, for all I know, perhaps not all countries have a single
'owner' of the copper...

Steve

>> Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed),
>> but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I
>> would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think
>> that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded
>> SDSL or not?
>
> Not only is there interest, it is actually seeing significant use - at
> least here in Norway. Typical case is bonding 2 or 4 SHDSL links for a
> total capacity of 4 or 8 Mbps.

Out of curiosity, in Norway, who owns the copper? What is your
revenue/lease cost ratio?

The copper is owned by the incumbent, Telenor. Leasing copper pairs is
95 NOK (around 17 USD) per pair per year. We have our own DSL equipment
in the Telenor COs, which lets us produce (among other things) bonded
SHDSL.

Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no

It's being done by Actelis, Hatteras, and Zhone. More exactly SHDSL or
similar variants. The market is being well-served.

Frank