Bogon Filter - Please check for 77/8 78/8 79/8

Mailman List Mirror (Read Only)
1

Hi *,
in august IANA handed 77/8 78/8 79/8 to RIPE which started handing out
those ranges 2 months ago.

We (Telefonica Deutschland AS6805) are seeing a lot of reachability problems
most likely caused by not updated bogon filters.

For testing purposes 77.181.114.4 aka bogon.mediaways.net
is up for icmp/http.

Please check and possibly update your filters.

Flo (aka flo@telefonica.de)

2

Florian Lohoff wrote:

Hi *,
in august IANA handed 77/8 78/8 79/8 to RIPE which started handing out
those ranges 2 months ago.

We (Telefonica Deutschland AS6805) are seeing a lot of reachability problems
most likely caused by not updated bogon filters.

For testing purposes 77.181.114.4 aka bogon.mediaways.net
is up for icmp/http.

Please check and possibly update your filters.

Flo (aka flo@telefonica.de)
  

This probably isn't helped much by sites like completewhois.com still showing these ranges as bogons..

http://www.completewhois.com/bogons/active_bogons.htm

They've ignored all my attempts to get them to update so far.. sigh..

Allan Houston - IP Network Operations
Tel : +44 1483 582615
ntl: Telewest

3

Allan Houston wrote:

This probably isn't helped much by sites like completewhois.com still showing these ranges as bogons..

completewhois.com steht zum Verkauf - Sedo GmbH

They've ignored all my attempts to get them to update so far.. sigh..

They just need someone using the address space to slap them with a lawsuit.

Jack Bates

4

why would you let a third party not related to your business directly
affect packet forwarding capabilities on your network? (in other words,
why would you use them?)

5

lawsuit? where does it say that someone MUST accept routes or
  listen to a self-appointed authority?

--bill

6

So we're saying that a lawsuit is an intelligent method to force someone
else to correct something that you are simply using to avoid the irritation
of manually updating things yourself???

That seems to be the epitomy of laziness vs. litigousness.

Scott

7

no, he's saying that a lawsuit is a useful method of forcing someone
who is intentionally or negligently distributing incorrect information
that other people who do not know any better then believe and use in
their own networks.

i betcha libel laws aren't written in such a way that they are useful
here, however, there might be some kind of restraint of trade thing
that could be invoked or somesuch. ianal, not my dept.

                                        ---rob

"Scott Morris" <swm@emanon.com> writes:

8

Scott Morris wrote:

So we're saying that a lawsuit is an intelligent method to force someone
else to correct something that you are simply using to avoid the irritation
of manually updating things yourself???

That seems to be the epitomy of laziness vs. litigousness. 

Scott

From:  [] 
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 9:55 AM
To: Jack Bates
Cc: 
Subject: Re: Bogon Filter - Please check for 77/8 78/8 79/8


  

Allan Houston wrote:
    

This probably isn't helped much by sites like completewhois.com 
still showing these ranges as bogons..

They've ignored all my attempts to get them to update so far.. sigh..

      

They just need someone using the address space to slap them with a
    

lawsuit.

I’ve spent a fairly substantial amount of time over the last few weeks attempting to get ISPs / hosting centers / little Johnny’s server in his mom’s basement to debogonise my 77.96.0.0/13 prefix.

I can tell you that I’ve heard no less than four times from networking bods that we’re still listed as a bogon on completewhois.com, that they don’t think they need to update their filters etc etc.

So while I agree entirely that you shouldn’t use these sites for accurate filters, we have to recognise that in an imperfect world there are some people who do choose to use them, no matter how silly we feel it is…

Guess the point I’m making is that chasing down bad bogons is a frustrating enough task without an alledgedly accurate listing site posting out of date info.

PS - if anyone has a networking contact at ev1servers.net , please send me a mail because I’m getting hair loss I can ill afford trying to get them to remove their bogon filters.

9

So we're saying that a lawsuit is an intelligent method to force someone
else to correct something that you are simply using to avoid the irritation
of manually updating things yourself???

That seems to be the epitomy of laziness vs. litigousness.

I think the point is that people are trusting this "self appointed" authority and thus others are blocking _his_ legitimate traffic.

If you're going to appoint yourself an "authority" then you have a responsibility to be accurate. If you're too lazy to keep your lists up to date then you need to stop offering said lists.

As an admin I can't stop other people from using such an idiotic list. However I can sue the list for libel- after all they are printing the
incorrect fact that the traffic I am sending is bogus and thus are harming my reputation and impacting my business.

Seems to me like this is _exactly_ what the courts are for. There is no gray area- it's not a question of whether or not this is spam for example. This list is publishing the false statement that the traffic this ISP is trying to send is bogus. If they won't correct their mistake then you absolutely should be able to petition the courts to get them to stop publishing false information about you.

-Don

10

Scott Morris wrote:

So we're saying that a lawsuit is an intelligent method to force someone
else to correct something that you are simply using to avoid the irritation
of manually updating things yourself???

That seems to be the epitomy of laziness vs. litigousness.

Scott

I would doubt the person using a bogon list would be the initiator of a lawsuit. It would be more plausible that the person using the netspace listed incorrectly as a bogon would have just cause for filing a lawsuit.

It's annoying enough to chase after all the people who manually configure bogon networks and forget them in their firewalls. From previous posts, it appears that this is a case of continued propagation of incorrect information after being notified of the inaccuracy, and the information is published as being fact; implying accuracy.

Jack Bates

11

no, he's saying that a lawsuit is a useful method of forcing someone
who is intentionally or negligently distributing incorrect information
that other people who do not know any better then believe and use in
their own networks.

i betcha libel laws aren't written in such a way that they are useful
here, however, there might be some kind of restraint of trade thing
that could be invoked or somesuch. ianal, not my dept.

  My recommendation is to write a letter (in german) and fax it
over to their fax# with the urls clearly written out (eg: iana vs their url)
showing the problem with the address space. it'll likely sufficently
confuse someone that they'll be curious and research it and solve
the problem.

  linking to stuff like the bogon-announce list too wouldn't
be a bad idea either :slight_smile:

  - jared

12

[After the very short IANAL part, an operational part wrt 2001:678::/29]

Robert E. Seastrom wrote:

no, he's saying that a lawsuit is a useful method of forcing someone
who is intentionally or negligently distributing incorrect information
that other people who do not know any better then believe and use in
their own networks.

If that is the basis that people sue on, then I really wonder all of a
sudden when somebody will sue their government, news agencies and all
those nice magazines where those paparazzi stalkers are working for.

But to keep this nice and operational:

Just as a side example: 2001:678:1::/48 is a "DNS Anycast Block".
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/pub/stats/ripencc/delegated-ripencc-latest doesn't
list this yet, even though it was allocated 2 months ago. There was
though a 2001:678::/35 block previously (which is still in the above
file but not in whois anymore). GRH thus listed this falsely. Should I
thus be liable for publishing information that is wrong, as GRH was
listing the /48 "Subnet of a big allocation", which it in effect was, as
it was, according to the tool, part of the /35.

grh.sixxs.net> show bgp 2001:678:1::/48
BGP routing table entry for 2001:678:1::/48
Paths: (32 available, best #30, table Default-IP-Routing-Table)

And that is out of about 100 peers that GRH has. As such can I ask the
community, people who are maintaining routers, to check their filters
and start accepting these prefixes? Thank you.

As many people rely on the 'delegated-<RIR>-latest' files for producing
their filters, I have contacted RIPE NCC to resolve that issue, most
likely that will then automatically punch the appropriate holes into the
automated tools which rely on it. GRH though has been updated manually
already. When RIPE NCC has fixed it up, I'll follow up to ISP's that
have not fixed up their filters yet, so that that number comes quite a
bit closer to 100. Thanks to Simon Leinen for reporting it btw as I
hadn't noticed it: am I thus liable for 'spreading false info' ?

Greets,
Jeroen
(glad to not be in the US :slight_smile:

13

Jared Mauch wrote:

  linking to stuff like the bogon-announce list too wouldn't
be a bad idea either :slight_smile:

Bogon announce list?

14

Stephen Satchell wrote:

Jared Mauch wrote:

    linking to stuff like the bogon-announce list too wouldn't
be a bad idea either :slight_smile:

Bogon announce list?

Read here: http://www.cymru.com/

And you will find:
http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/bogon-announce

Btw it is the first hit on google(bogon announce list)

Greets,
Jeroen

15

* Jared Mauch:

  My recommendation is to write a letter (in german) and fax it
over to their fax# with the urls clearly written out (eg: iana vs
their url) showing the problem with the address space. it'll likely
sufficently confuse someone that they'll be curious and research it
and solve the problem.

Isn't completewhois.com William's project? I doubt he cares about
German letters if he doesn't even notice the peer pressure on NANOG.

16

no, he's saying that a lawsuit is a useful method of forcing someone
who is intentionally or negligently distributing incorrect information
that other people who do not know any better then believe and use in
their own networks.

i betcha libel laws aren't written in such a way that they are useful
here, however, there might be some kind of restraint of trade thing
that could be invoked or somesuch. ianal, not my dept.

If you google for it, you'll find lots of obsolete bogon info, typically lacking the suggestion to check IANA's web site or other resources to check the freshness of the data or any warning that the data will change over time as more space gets allocated.

From the first page of google: bogon ACL cisco

Do you threaten to sue them all? The real problems are all the networks that setup static bogon filters some time ago which nobody maintains or in some cases, even knows about. Changing a few web sites won't fix any of those routers.

It's a lousy position to be in, but my suggestion is try to make contact with the bigger / more important networks blocking your new space and let the rest of them figure it out on their own.

I'm surprised William's site hasn't been updated. He used to be fairly
active online. Has anyone heard from him at all recently?

17

Completewhois email server is down right now and needs to be rebuilt.
That's not to say that is a good excuse - I should have updated bogon list 3 months ago when allocation was made, but I missed it among
many emails on this list and other lists; its fixed as of right now,
so my apologies to those who received new allocations from 77/8
(apparently RIPE started allocating two weeks ago; a bit sooner
after IANA allocation then before, but I guess they are out of
available space on other blocks...). I also added daily emailing of active_bogons list to this and one other of my actively used email accounts which would make it easier to catch similar problems.

18

what no backup MX? now postmaster/abuse/root working emails at that
domain? did you put the domain also on 'rfc ignorant'?

19

Mail store is not working, not mail service for domain and backups do
exist. But as far as 'rfc ignorant' while it would probably not qualify,
I'd have no problem with the listing as until mail server is fixed [that would be about one more week] no emails would be sent from the domain.
I did put catchall on another server for email, but its just impossible to read with 4000 emails per day and 99.9..% of them being spam (including unfortunetly bots doing webform submission). BTW - I wanted to see how many people actually reported it (as it was mentioned here as being multiple attempts to contact), while I can't be 100% sure just from
grep -P it looks like two people reported it on Dec 6th (one of them Allan) and that's about it; those who did report it will receive separate answers once email can be properly sorted.

20

Florian Lohoff wrote:

Hi *,
in august IANA handed 77/8 78/8 79/8 to RIPE which started handing out
those ranges 2 months ago.

We (Telefonica Deutschland AS6805) are seeing a lot of reachability problems
most likely caused by not updated bogon filters.

For testing purposes 77.181.114.4 aka bogon.mediaways.net
is up for icmp/http.

Please check and possibly update your filters.

Flo (aka flo@telefonica.de)

To facilitate "de-bogonising" the RIPE NCC advertises some of the
prefixes from the newly allocated ranges from our RIS beacons. We do
this for a few months before starting allocating them to LIRs.

http://www.ris.ripe.net/debogon/debogon.html

Andrei Robbachevsky
RIPE NCC