### On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:45:25 -0500, "Howard C. Berkowitz"
### <hcb@clark.net> casually decided to expound upon nanog@merit.edu the
### following thoughts about "Re: Automated DLR conflict detection":
>Unnamed Administration sources reported that Sean Donelan said:
>>
>> You could hire me to inspect your network, but that doesn't scale.
>
>Damn... it *IS* Sean with the Black Backhoe. He's verifying the
>diversity, the only real way to....
>
May I suggest the Sean with the Black Backhoe as a permanent NANOG
post, much like Black Rod and Silver Stick in the UK? It's so much
more than sergeant-at-arms or bodyguard.
So is that who we'll be sending our "protection money"? |8^)
Actually I would be much happy with a Certified something. I can't
figure out why people want a CCIE to run their Juniper routers. But
you can't get past the HR people without the right letters.
Do you think we can talk Tony Li into providing certifications? A
Certified Tony Li Engineer (CTLE) should be qualified to drive a router
from any of Dr. Li's current or former employers.
Maybe we could have a NANOG T-Shirt with Sean on a backhoe at night
checking for physical diversity?
But then we'd have to add some city in the background with an entire force
of backhoes gettin' busy cause when he comes to town some of the backhoes
come out, but if Sean's actually on a backhoe himself they'd *all* come
out of hiding at the same time and have a fiber party...
Because a CCIE is about a lot more than knowing how to configure a Cisco
device, very few will pass a CCIE test without _knowing_ the technology,
and what they are doing, and that is the same regardless of the label on
the equipment.
(can't) figure out why people want a CCIE to run their Juniper routers.
Unlike MS-Something certification, CCIE certification is tough enough
and practical enough that the annointed ones are often proven to be useful
in any situation. Although I am an old *nix/Linux routing nutcase, I work
with a young sponge that just got his CCIE and I am impressed with the
foundation he has and his ability to apply it to a wide variety of
equipment and scenerios.
Should you find yourself driving around Chattanooga in a "stealth
backhoe", even at 3am... beware of the rednecks living next door
to the fiber.
.~. meuon@geeklabs.com
/V\
// \\ recycled thoughts and random electrons = email
/( )\
^`~'^
If I had to choose someone to work with, I'd take someone with tons of
experience and especially a Cisco degree over a MS-style degree (Not
just because it is Microsoft).
Most MCSE classes and material (books) teach you how to pass the MCSE,
not how to do well in the real world (Sort of like the SATs).
In my Cisco classes, I learned a lot about routers and networking as
whole, even more than I knew prior. Real world applications, like
recovering from a lost enable password (You would not believe how many
people configure a router then "forget" the enable password) are taught.
Plus, once you learn one thing, it is very easy to port skills to
something else. Like I can figure out most programs (especially GUIs),
since they are all pretty similar to each other.
How do you recover a password on a Juniper router?
I think the CCIE and cisco training is wonderful. I took the CCIE lab
and passed configuring all sorts of protocols like X.25, DECNET, and LAT
which aren't included in the lab anymore. It is very good at teaching and
testing vendor knowledge, like recovering a lost password. I just don't
understand how a having a CCIE is related to operating a Juniper network.
Neither Juniper nor Cisco gives credit for certification by the other. If
you want to skip the first level support, you need that specific vendor's
certification. Both certifications are designed so you must know the
specific vendor's equipment in order to pass. If you have a Juniper
backbone I would expected a HR department require a Juniper Certified
Internet Expert.
Do so few Juniper Certified Internet Experts exist that companies are
forced to hire CCIE's instead of JCIE's? Would I be better getting a
JCIE because there are rarer? I noticed several CCIE's rising to defend
their certification, but not a single JCIE.
That may have been true during your genre of CCIE's, but not with the latest
round of CCIE's, my friends... you should see the posts I see on the ccie
lab mailing lists. Its enough to scare even me, and I don't scare easily.
The latest round of study materials is creating a "puppy mill" of CCIEs -
inexperienced, money-hungry, power-conscious, and absolutely clueless. I
wouldn't give most of them the enable passwords to my routers...
Do so few Juniper Certified Internet Experts exist that companies are
forced to hire CCIE's instead of JCIE's? Would I be better getting a
JCIE because there are rarer? I noticed several CCIE's rising to defend
their certification, but not a single JCIE.
Considering how few JCIE's exist, that's not surprising. And they're
probably all too busy fixing and designing networks to be monitoring NANOG
forced to hire CCIE's instead of JCIE's? Would I be better getting a
JCIE because there are rarer? I noticed several CCIE's rising to defend
their certification, but not a single JCIE.
I would contend there are a few more CCIE's than JCIE's and in a real
world large company hiring situation you face a few possible scenerios:
1. The commitee to revise job requirements has not met.
2. The manager requesting the position through HR is clueless.
3. HR is clueless, and just cut-and-pasted a similiar job ad.
4. They know exactly what they are doing, and the person they
really want to hire happens to be CCIE, and they figure he/she
can read the Juniper manuals until they get the JCIE.
By the way.. I am thinking of using a Juniper M5 for a channelized DS3
interface to a local CLEC (serving data to frac T1 customers).
Any good/bad comments?
As for getting the JCIE because they are rarer.. that's just wrong.
Get what you need and can use where you want to live.
--Mike Harrison
Rare (and now useless) certifications include:
CBET #2750 (ASHE Certified BioMedical Electronics Technician)
CCE #2750 (ASHE Certified Clinical Engineer)
Irix Linear Phased Array Ultrasound Certified Technician
Sharplan CO2 Laser Certified Technician
GE 3 Phase X-Ray...
ad infiniteum ad nauseum
That may have been true during your genre of CCIE's, but not with the
latest
round of CCIE's, my friends... you should see the posts I see on the ccie
lab mailing lists. Its enough to scare even me, and I don't scare easily.
The people studying for CCIE can be scary. The failure rate is extremely
high, and most (but unfortunately not all) of the people who pass are
reasonably clueful.
The latest round of study materials is creating a "puppy mill" of CCIEs -
inexperienced, money-hungry, power-conscious, and absolutely clueless. I
wouldn't give most of them the enable passwords to my routers...
A certification does not absolve you from due diligence during the hiring
process. I've turned down a few CCIE applicants for lack of clue myself.
Unlike MS-Something certification, CCIE certification is tough enough
and practical enough that the annointed ones are often proven to be useful
in any situation. Although I am an old *nix/Linux routing nutcase, I work
with a young sponge that just got his CCIE and I am impressed with the
foundation he has and his ability to apply it to a wide variety of
equipment and scenerios.
"Ha ha ha ha ha". Sorry - but I have come across CCIEs that do *not*
understand basic LAN / WAN issues, BGP ("that's like RIP/OSPF isn't it ?")
and a whole range of similar stuff. I know that people always slip through,
but please don't equate CCIE with 'independent' qualifications. (Independent
as in vendor neutral, and to some extent technology neutral).
