ARIN?

Mailman List Mirror (Read Only)
1

Again, we are applying for more space from ARIN.

Some of the questions we got from them range from "please provide a
network map and/or customers justification as to why they needed a /24" to
"please provide where your POPs are, how many dialups there are in that
POP, and how many ports you have in that dialup."

I'd love to know if larger places (UU? PSI? MCI? Sprint? etc) have to
answer questions like this when they apply for space.

I don't want to hear an answer from ARIN, I would like feedback from
actual customers of ARIN.

Thanks.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
     Atheism is a non-prophet organization. I route, therefore I am.
       Alex Rubenstein, alex@nac.net, KC2BUO, ISP/C Charter Member
               Father of the Network and Head Bottle-Washer
     Net Access Corporation, 9 Mt. Pleasant Tpk., Denville, NJ 07834
Don't choose a spineless ISP; we have more backbone! http://www.nac.net
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

2

Again, we are applying for more space from ARIN.

Some of the questions we got from them range from "please provide a
network map and/or customers justification as to why they needed a /24" to
"please provide where your POPs are, how many dialups there are in that
POP, and how many ports you have in that dialup."

i think this is perfectly reasonable. "please provide where your
POPs are" seems a bit extreme, you should have all this information
immediately available anyway. right?

I'd love to know if larger places (UU? PSI? MCI? Sprint? etc) have to
answer questions like this when they apply for space.

can't speak for those folks, but Verio has been asked the same/similar
questions.

3

>
> Again, we are applying for more space from ARIN.
>
> Some of the questions we got from them range from "please provide a
> network map and/or customers justification as to why they needed a /24" to
> "please provide where your POPs are, how many dialups there are in that
> POP, and how many ports you have in that dialup."

i think this is perfectly reasonable. "please provide where your
POPs are" seems a bit extreme, you should have all this information
immediately available anyway. right?

Yes, but everytime we apply?

I think it's rediculous for them to ask us to break it down by
geographical locations.

can't speak for those folks, but Verio has been asked the same/similar
questions.

Uh huh. Interesting.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
     Atheism is a non-prophet organization. I route, therefore I am.
       Alex Rubenstein, alex@nac.net, KC2BUO, ISP/C Charter Member
               Father of the Network and Head Bottle-Washer
     Net Access Corporation, 9 Mt. Pleasant Tpk., Denville, NJ 07834
Don't choose a spineless ISP; we have more backbone! http://www.nac.net
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

4

Alex,

It happens to all of us... I base this on experience at smaller ISP's
and with SBC Internet services. ( Southwestern Bell, Pacific Bell, Nevada
Bell, SNET ).

Douglas Ring

5

Not only that, but he's done this before. Assuming they want similar
information to the last time he applied, it should just be a matter of
updating the ARIN isptemplate he used last time such that it's current,
and fire it off to ARIN. You do keep copies of these things...right?

---dont't waste your cpu, crack rc5...www.distributed.net team enzo---
Jon Lewis <jlewis@fdt.net> | Spammers will be winnuked or
Network Administrator | nestea'd...whatever it takes
Florida Digital Turnpike | to get the job done.
______http://inorganic5.fdt.net/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key________

6

Yo Alex!

7

As a cable ISP, my company is required to SWIP each netblock that we use.
The name of the netblock corresponds to the POP name. We're applying for
space again too, and as a standard procedure, we include utilization
statistics for each netblock, and for each POP. We will be asked questions
if, for instance, we gave a new assignment for a POP before the last block
was not a certain percentage utilized.

8

Yup.

alex@nac.net wrote:

9

Yo Alex!

> I'd love to know if larger places (UU? PSI? MCI? Sprint? etc) have to
> answer questions like this when they apply for space.
How about @Home? Wish I could just make up wildly expansive business
plans and get ARIN to sign off on it...

RGDS
GARY

LOL (oh this is a good one)

I think you need to take a serious look at the justification that cable
companies like @home have to submit for additional space. Then be real
careful what you ask for...

Ed

10

Hi,

How about @Home? Wish I could just make up wildly expansive business
plans and get ARIN to sign off on it...

Sigh. Having @Home show up in these discussions all the time gets
boring.

ARIN (InterNIC at the time) didn't "sign off" on @Home's request --
@Home was rejected by InterNIC and appealed to the IANA. After
justifying the request to the IANA, InterNIC was asked to do the
allocation. Note that "wildly expansive business plans" don't (or at
least didn't, don't think it has changed) cut it -- @Home had to provide
sufficient corroborating evidence to back up their "wildly expansive
business plans". Given @Home seems to have lived up to those plans, it
would appear the IANA was justified in overriding InterNIC...

Regards,
-drc

11

> I don't want to hear an answer from ARIN, I would like feedback from
> actual customers of ARIN.
>

We just went through the ringer on it again, and I think ARIN does a
pretty good job. All the questions they're asking are pretty standard and
they're trying to adhere to, uh, RFC2050(?) in a pretty tight way.

Earlier experiences with the InterNic were deadly impossible, depending on
who dealt with your request.

12

Yo Ed!

>
> > I'd love to know if larger places (UU? PSI? MCI? Sprint? etc) have to
> > answer questions like this when they apply for space.
> How about @Home? Wish I could just make up wildly expansive business
> plans and get ARIN to sign off on it...
>
> RGDS
> GARY
>

LOL (oh this is a good one)

I do not remember being amused when I learned of the @home allocation.

I think you need to take a serious look at the justification that cable
companies like @home have to submit for additional space. Then be real
careful what you ask for...

I think you need to take a serious look at how little of their
address space they have really used. This is not funny when I have
to kill to allocate /30. Some animals are more equal than others
on THIS farm.

RGDS
GARY

13

Again, we are applying for more space from ARIN.

Congrats, glad to see you're doing well. (At least I hope your growth
indicates you are doing well. :slight_smile:

Some of the questions we got from them range from "please provide a
network map and/or customers justification as to why they needed a /24" to
"please provide where your POPs are, how many dialups there are in that
POP, and how many ports you have in that dialup."

I'd love to know if larger places (UU? PSI? MCI? Sprint? etc) have to
answer questions like this when they apply for space.

I happen to know a reasonably large ISP which has to go through some pretty
difficult justification to get more space. You should try a RWHOIS server,
it can help make it easier to "justify" stuff for ARIN. (At least that's
what some people tell me, I've never set one up myself.)

I don't want to hear an answer from ARIN, I would like feedback from
actual customers of ARIN.

I've seen lots of companies jump through some major hoops, and I don't
really begrudge ARIN the necessity of making sure the allocations are made
... frugally. But I do wonder why they would ask for geographical
information other than to be sure the space is used within "America". (Or
is that even a requirement?)

      Alex Rubenstein, alex@nac.net, KC2BUO, ISP/C Charter Member

TTFN,
patrick

I Am Not An Isp
www.ianai.net
"Think of it as evolution in action." - Niven & Pournelle

14

I think you need to take a serious look at how little of their
address space they have really used. This is not funny when I have
to kill to allocate /30. Some animals are more equal than others
on THIS farm.

I know a little bit about @Home, but not as much as the people who work
there, so feel free to yell & scream if I mess this up.

I do believe you are correct in your implication that @Home does not
utilize address space quite as efficiently as most traditional ISPs.
However, they are under a greater burden than your traditional ISP. Most
of the equipment they were forced to use in the "early days", and possibly
a good deal of it today, is not what I would call "optimal". They are
forced to allocate /24s to some cable routers no matter how few customers
there are on that router. Most do not understand classless IP, or even
basic subnetting. Etc., etc.

The point is, the people I know at @Home do try very hard to use their IP
space within reason. But there are some things they just can not do.

There are two sides to every story. (Well, almost every story.... :wink:

Gary E. Miller Rellim 2680 Bayshore Pkwy, #202 Mountain View, CA 94043-1009

TTFN,
patrick

I Am Not An Isp
www.ianai.net
"Think of it as evolution in action." - Niven & Pournelle

15

Yo Patrick!

I do believe you are correct in your implication that @Home does not
utilize address space quite as efficiently as most traditional ISPs.
However, they are under a greater burden than your traditional ISP. Most
of the equipment they were forced to use in the "early days", and possibly
a good deal of it today, is not what I would call "optimal". They are
forced to allocate /24s to some cable routers no matter how few customers
there are on that router. Most do not understand classless IP, or even
basic subnetting. Etc., etc.

If I downgrade my routers, do you think I can use this on my next
ARIN application? I would have been embarrased to try it even
when they got their address space.

The point is, the people I know at @Home do try very hard to use their IP
space within reason. But there are some things they just can not do.

I have no complaint with the people, I am just jealous.

BTW, their October 13, 1998 press release says they have 210K users.
Their /8 has 16,777,216 IP addresses give or take a few hundred
thousand. Not a bad packing ratio...

RGDS
GARY

16

So can I qualify for my own chunk of space (I'll be nice and only ask for
a /16) if I use RIP and can't subnet? I find it hard to believe ARIN
would buy "but my routers won't let me subnet" as justification for
address space.

---dont't waste your cpu, crack rc5...www.distributed.net team enzo---
Jon Lewis <jlewis@fdt.net> | Spammers will be winnuked or
Network Administrator | nestea'd...whatever it takes
Florida Digital Turnpike | to get the job done.
______http://inorganic5.fdt.net/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key________

17

So can I qualify for my own chunk of space (I'll be nice and only ask for
a /16) if I use RIP and can't subnet? I find it hard to believe ARIN
would buy "but my routers won't let me subnet" as justification for
address space.

First of all, I think we've established that @Home's current utilization is
pretty good.

Secondly, @Home wasn't using classfull addressing at first because they
didn't want to put in the effort, they simply had no choice. There was no
equipment available at the time which would do CIDR. So, it was either
allocate them X amount and make @Home renumber into CIDR when the software
was available to do CIDR (which they were in the process of doing last time
I talked to them), or put them out of business.

Personally, I don't think ARIN should be in charge of deciding who stays in
business because the state of the technology isn't up to their standards.
Nor do I think we should stifle new technologies because it doesn't
suddenly appear on the scene fully mature. I'm all for saving address
space, but not at the cost of random

But then again, I'm not ARIN - hell, some would say I'm not even an ISP. :stuck_out_tongue:

Jon Lewis <jlewis@fdt.net> | Spammers will be winnuked or

TTFN,
patrick

I Am Not An Isp
www.ianai.net
"Think of it as evolution in action." - Niven & Pournelle

18

That argument only works for *some* people Jon. As you can see (it apparently
worked for @HOME!)

Try it and let us know if it works for you :slight_smile:

19

That argument equally applies to hardware which is available, but is a LOT
cheaper without the feature set that is required to "comply" with ARIN's
demands.

Why should ARIN be able to put someone's business model into the trash can
because of technical complience issues?

20

That argument equally applies to hardware which is available, but is a LOT
cheaper without the feature set that is required to "comply" with ARIN's
demands.

Why should ARIN be able to put someone's business model into the trash can
because of technical complience issues?

Hrmmmm, you have a major point. Suppose only routers costing 6 figures or
more could do CIDR, while routers costing, say, four figures could do
RIPv1? Should we give someone a large block to get "up and running" until
they could afford the much more expensive routers?

Of course, this is not the case, so it's an exercise in philosophy.
Perhaps we should consider it because of the possibility of a new
technology coming out in such a fashion. As a member of the board, Karl,
this is especially pertinent to you, but I do believe it is an operation
issue we should all consider and discuss.

I'm inclined to say that we should give someone a larger allocation to
start - assuming reasonably priced CIDR capable routers are coming in the
near future and they agree to renumber into CIDR once the
routers/software/whatever is available to make more reasonable allocations.
Of course, this is open to lots of interpretations, such as "reasonably
priced" and "near future" - but no one said address allocation policy would
be easy.

See, I just don't think "Address Space" should be a barrier to entry. It's
not like ARIN *owns* the space, they're just the caretaker for the IPv4
space in America for the "community". As a member of the community, I want
them to be fugal to avoid waste. But unusually large (and temporary)
allocations to allow a company to enter the market - a company that would
otherwise have to perform Herculean tasks, tasks none of the rest of us
have ever had to perform, or maybe even tasks impossible with the State of
the Art - is not, IMHO, waste.

How's that for a "grey area"? :slight_smile:

Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl

TTFN,
patrick

I Am Not An Isp
www.ianai.net
"Think of it as evolution in action." - Niven & Pournelle