Was looking at the ARIN IP6 policy and cannot find any reference to those who have
IP4 legacy space.
Isn't there an automatic allocation for those of us who have legacy IP space. If not, is ARIN
saying we have to pay them a fee to use IP6? Isn't this a disincentive for us to move up to IP6?
Those with legacy IP4 space should have the equivalent IP6 space under the same terms. Or
am I missing something?
Hi John,
The game is:
Sign ARIN's "Legacy RSA" covering your legacy space. With the LRSA you
retain more rights than folks who sign the regular RSA, but probably
less rights than you have now.
Pay your $100/year as an end-user. You now qualify for an IPv6
assignment under ARIN NRPM 6.5.8.1b regardless of the size of your
network.
Pay the $1250 IPv6 initial assignment fee.
For better or for worse, you're not going to get IPv6 space under the
"same terms" as your legacy IPv4 space. You got a really good deal on
IPv4. Try not to be too disappointed that the same deal isn't
available with IPv6.
Regards,
Bill Herrin
Yes. You're 6 days late.
Nick
Was looking at the ARIN IP6 policy and cannot find any reference to those who have IP4 legacy space.
Isn't there an automatic allocation for those of us who have legacy IP space.
Nope.
If not, is ARIN saying we have to pay them a fee to use IP6?
Yep.
Isn't this a disincentive for us to move up to IP6?
Yep. Just went through this with one organization which I hadn't realized at the time was a legacy IPv4 holder. The fees were a surprise (I thought they'd already been paying those fees). Needless to say, their IPv6 plans are on hold indefinitely.
Those with legacy IP4 space should have the equivalent IP6 space under the same terms. Or am I missing something?
But they're not exactly the same terms. ARIN 'terms' for the legacy holder probably didn't exist at the time of their IPv4 allocation.
Antonio Querubin
808-545-5282 x3003
e-mail/xmpp: tony@lava.net
There was talk a little while ago about a fee waiver for legacy holders who
had signed an RSA but I think it's still in the suggestion phase. To get v6
space now you would need to sign an RSA for the v6 space and pay the v6
fee's. There is a partial fee waiver in effect for ISP v6 allocations. No
fee waiver for end user v6 allocations.
As for being a disincentive, only you can answer whether your network needs
justify a v6 allocation or whether or not v4 will service you.
Aaron
Was looking at the ARIN IP6 policy and cannot find any reference to those
who have
IP4 legacy space.Isn't there an automatic allocation for those of us who have legacy IP
space. If not, is ARIN
saying we have to pay them a fee to use IP6? Isn't this a disincentive for
us to move up to IP6?Those with legacy IP4 space should have the equivalent IP6 space under the
same terms. Or am I missing something?Hi John,
The game is:
Sign ARIN's "Legacy RSA" covering your legacy space. With the LRSA you
retain more rights than folks who sign the regular RSA, but probably
less rights than you have now.
More accurately, you retain more rights than the standard RSA and you
move from a situation where your exact rights are unknown and
undetermined with no contractual relationship between you and ARIN
to a situation where your rights are assured, enumerated, and a
contractual relationship exists between you and ARIN governing
the services you are receiving from ARIN.
Pay your $100/year as an end-user. You now qualify for an IPv6
assignment under ARIN NRPM 6.5.8.1b regardless of the size of your
network.Pay the $1250 IPv6 initial assignment fee.
This is correct. I would like to see initial registration fee waivers for
IPv6 end-user assignments. I've brought the subject up on arin-discuss.
There was substantial opposition to the idea. If you would like to see
that happen, I encourage you to voice your opinion there.
For better or for worse, you're not going to get IPv6 space under the
"same terms" as your legacy IPv4 space. You got a really good deal on
IPv4. Try not to be too disappointed that the same deal isn't
available with IPv6.
Well said, Bill.
Owen
Isn't there an automatic allocation for those of us who have legacy IP
space. If not, is ARIN saying we have to pay them a fee to use IP6?
Isn't this a disincentive for us to move up to IP6?
If you're a very small company looking for larger than /32, maybe it's an issue.
If you're a medium-large company and /48 or /32 is enough, the
decision looks like this
- Option 1 - Pay the annoying fee, which is less than a week's pay for
a senior engineer.
- Option 2 - Allocate 160 hours of meeting time (50% scheduled, 50% ad-hoc),
spread over 18 months, for one senior engineer, two
junior engineers,
one mid-level manager, two upper level managers, three
accounting trolls,
18 reams of printer paper, six pots of coffee, optional
doughnuts.
Most companies prefer the latter approach, but you don't have to be one of them.
ARIN Region IPv6 fee waiver:
https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html#waivers
"In Jan 2008, the Board of Trustees decided to reduce the fee waiver
incrementally over a period of 4 years. Full fees will be in effect in
2012."
Can you provide rationalization why anyone should automatically get any
kind of allocation? Or why legacy holders should "have equivalent
[IPv6] space under the same terms"
You can read through past iterations of this discussion over in the PPML
archives.
--Heather
How much IPv6 address space were they expecting? I have trouble
envisioning any operation that could require more than a /32 immediately
that can't afford to pay $4500 per YEAR.
- there is no address scarcity with IPv6 (at least not in the sense that there is with v4)
- there is no significant danger of unconstrained v6 RIB explosion when assigning PI prefix to people who already occupy at least one slot in the v4 table (the problem is constrained to be at worst as bad as we see with v4, which is a known ceiling)
- there's minimal administrative overhead in assigning PI space to people who are unlikely ever to come back to ask for more
- what administrative overhead there is is minimal if the process of justification is trivial (or automatic)
- ARIN says it is in the business of encouraging people to use v6
- people are more likely to use v6 if they can get v6 addresses easily and cheaply
So automatically assigning v6 addresses to people who have a history of advertising v4 prefixes seems like it has minimal cost (less cost than other assignment strategies, seems to me) minimal risk to the Internet and will encourage people to use v6.
What rationalisation can you provide for not doing this?
[I mention this just because you asked. I'm not trying to turn NANOG into PPML. I'd mention this on PPML instead, but past experience tells me that I have far too much real work to do every day to be able to follow that list, and posting to a list you don't read seems rude.]
Joe
(speaking as private individual, not in any other capacity)
If not, is ARIN saying we have to pay them a fee to use IP6?
Yeap. Just like everyone else with address space assigned from ARIN.
Isn't this a disincentive for us to move up to IP6?
Yes! However, eventually, your "free" IPv4 space will be useless -- the rest of the world having moved on to IPv6. (and eventually the sun will burn out. I'm not worried about either.)
Those with legacy IP4 space should have the equivalent IP6 space under the same terms. Or am I missing something?
Why should they? The early ("legacy") allocations are from an different era. Their free ride is nearing it's end. They will have to start paying for address space like everyone else. And yes, that will further hinder IPv6 deployment.
Yo Ricky!
They will have to start paying for
address space like everyone else.
I could handle 'like everyone else', but have you noticed the HUGE
per IP disparity between large and small block sizes?
RGDS
GARY
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97701
gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588
If you don't have a contract with ARIN, why should ARIN provide you with anything?
Gary,
ARIN doesn't allocate IPv6 addresses on a per-address basis. ARIN charges fees for address block assignments using a cost recovery model, and attempts to set those fees approximately proportional to the costs of allocating, assigning, and maintaining registration for address blocks.
It costs ARIN about the same (up front) to allocate a /32 as it does to assign a /48. On an ongoing basis, it costs more to maintain registry integrity (keep whois up to date) on a /32 allocation than it does for a /48 assignment. So the annual fee for a /48 assignment is $100/yr, whereas the annual fee for a /32 allocation is the same as the initial allocation fee.
If you are not an ARIN member, but would like to participate in the members' discussion of ARIN's fee structure, the semi-annual member's meeting is open to the public. Remote participation is available free of charge:
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/ARIN-XXV/remote.html
Also, don't forget that if you want to pay less (i.e. nothing) for your IPv6 assignment, you can get a /48 for free from just about any ISP that does IPv6.
-Scott
But its not portable. Thats a deal breaker for some applications.
Amount of address space wasn't the problem. The application was actually approved by ARIN. However, fighting for a line in the budget for the unexpected fee(s) and the prospect of having to push the RSA through state government lawyers was enough to dissuade them that IPv6 just wasn't important enough at this time.
Antonio Querubin
808-545-5282 x3003
e-mail/xmpp: tony@lava.net
Hi,
I guess I am confused. Don't you have to pay for IP4 space? I know I am still fairly new to things. So maybe I just don't get it.
Sincerely,
Mark
Antonio Querubin wrote:
Legacy IPv4 holders have no obligation to ARIN until they sign an RSA.
Antonio Querubin
808-545-5282 x3003
e-mail/xmpp: tony@lava.net
The obligation of legacy holders to ARIN (if any exists) and the obligation of ARIN to
legacy holders (again, if any exists) is definitely an open question.
One which, so far, ARIN has tried to be very gentle about, providing services to
legacy holders without asking much (anything) in return.
The Legacy RSA is a particularly generous version of the RSA which is
intended to preserve most of the perceived benefits legacy holders currently
receive while bringing their resources clearly under ARIN stewardship
and imposing a few of the obligations which exist for all other resource
holding members of the community.
Owen
Because ARIN is one of the guardians of Internet public policy and it
is in the public's best interest for every individual private
organization to spend the money and effort deploying IPv6 sooner
rather than later, regardless of their individual relationships with
ARIN.
It's like government services for the elderly. Though today many are a
net drain on society, they've mostly earned their place with past
action and it's the decent and charitable thing to do for the folks
who created the possibility of the lives we enjoy today.
Regards,
Bill Herrin