AOL & Cogent

The perceived "money on the table" frequently doesn't exist and attempts
to get it may produce the opposite result.

well, yeah, sure, but...

* Who they shift the traffic to may be your competitor.

...at least you know they are paying SOMEBODY, thus supporting the market
you want to be in. you can then compete in that market. if everybody who
could peer in N places worldwide could just get peering, then all kinds of
per-bit revenue for "high tier" network owners would turn into per-port
revenue for exchange point operators. where's the market in that? how
could a "high tier" even exist in those conditions?

If you assume the above three cases are costs and you add that to the cost
of the decreased efficiency of traffic to the target network you can
compare it to the probability that you can sell service to the former
peer. Depending on the relationship, you can guess the likelyhood.

well, that's a technical consideration, and as such won't matter until we've
burned through some of the overcapacity from the dot-bomb era. right now
it's possible to do gaming and voip and other isochronous applications via
a transit provider who can backhaul your traffic 1500 miles (or 6000 miles)
to some centralised peering point and still have reasonable performance. we
will need to 1000X the traffic volume again before this stops working again.

which should take about a year.

> The perceived "money on the table" frequently doesn't exist and attempts
> to get it may produce the opposite result.

well, yeah, sure, but...

> * Who they shift the traffic to may be your competitor.

...at least you know they are paying SOMEBODY, thus supporting the market
you want to be in. you can then compete in that market. if everybody who
could peer in N places worldwide could just get peering, then all kinds of
per-bit revenue for "high tier" network owners would turn into per-port
revenue for exchange point operators. where's the market in that? how
could a "high tier" even exist in those conditions?

Good point about market support..

Well, I think as a local operator you can not expect to be able to peer with
everyone to receive global routes but theres no reason not to exchange local
routes comparable to the area your own network covers, this wont affect transit
sales and wont cost you in backhaul either. Thats a slightly different
perspective than assuming you can get a providers to exchange all their network
with you in a settlement free bilateral.

> If you assume the above three cases are costs and you add that to the cost
> of the decreased efficiency of traffic to the target network you can
> compare it to the probability that you can sell service to the former
> peer. Depending on the relationship, you can guess the likelyhood.

well, that's a technical consideration, and as such won't matter until we've
burned through some of the overcapacity from the dot-bomb era. right now
it's possible to do gaming and voip and other isochronous applications via
a transit provider who can backhaul your traffic 1500 miles (or 6000 miles)
to some centralised peering point and still have reasonable performance. we
will need to 1000X the traffic volume again before this stops working again.

Unfortunately I tend to agree, on the whole the internet is about web pages and
email and that wont suffer from the perspective on the eyeballs..

But, hosters are very conscious about this and will move to the better connected
provider, we've seen this on the CW takeover on Exodus, as Exodus closed peers
the customers abandoned ship...

And definitely to your gamers and possibly your VoIP folks to (depending on
details) they will be very fickle on your network connectivity and the quality
of local peerings is crucial to these applications, gaming is growing very
quickly as more people get flat fee broadband and to a residential access
provider I wouldnt underestimate how much it could hurt to increase the path to
the servers by a couple of hops.

Steve

per-bit revenue for "high tier" network owners would turn into per-port
revenue for exchange point operators. where's the market in that? how

I think you just answered your own question. Exchange point operations.

could a "high tier" even exist in those conditions?

I think its a difficult market to exist in anyway.

It may be that networks can make revenue on characteristics of their
network other than simply bps. The quality (read: latency, loss factor,
transparency/or-not, connectedness) and services (read: various types
of servers such as for games, voice/multimedia gateways, storage,
flexibility - perhaps deliver service further than the smartjack?)
may be what differeniates one from another. This doesn't seem to be
happening though and I'm not sure how likely it will be.

If the market is soley about the number of bits, soon this might
not be an attractive market for a lot of providers to be in. If
there are a lot of suppliers and the ease of changing suppliers is
simple (good reason for you to want to get rid of NAT :-), the
market will be commoditized with consumers simply moving their
connections around to Cogent-like providers on a month-to-month
basis. This assumes most suppliers provide a reasonable level of
quality, which most probably do. If there are only a few suppliers
(oligopoly?), little choice and strong barriers to entry, it might
be a much more attractive market to be in. As a customer, I'd like
to see the former more than the latter. Perhaps then the services
above would be more forthcoming?

John

> The perceived "money on the table" frequently doesn't exist and attempts
> to get it may produce the opposite result.

well, yeah, sure, but...

> * Who they shift the traffic to may be your competitor.

...at least you know they are paying SOMEBODY, thus supporting the market
you want to be in. you can then compete in that market. if everybody who
could peer in N places worldwide could just get peering, then all kinds of
per-bit revenue for "high tier" network owners would turn into per-port
revenue for exchange point operators. where's the market in that? how
could a "high tier" even exist in those conditions?

This is a straw man argument. I could just point out how it's technically
wrong except that would be no fun so instead I'll give analogies first:

Your argument is like saying that everybody that has taken a wood shop
class in high school (or junior high) can build their own house, so home
builders are going to be out of business.

Or how about... Since everybody that has a truck can drive a package from
San Jose to New York, Federal Express and United Parcel Service are no
longer needed.

Or most mundane yet... Everybody knows how to make sandwitches so there
aren't going to be any kind large sandwitch chains, let alone
multinational corporations that serve food.

Seriously...

Networks cost money to build and operate. Geography, both physical and
political, provide for varying costs over different routes. The majority
of large networks don't have the exact same routers in the exact same
places connected with the exact same circuits. Operational costs, capital
costs, customer service attitudes, and policies are different between
companies. All of these features define the specific value added of a
network. Economic pressure and the underlying technology determine how
many companies can exist.

Even if there were low barriers to entry, it doesn't mean that there won't
be cases where it makes perfectly reasonable sense to some networks to
outsource part of their infrastructure needs. This might be as simple as
coverage for a specific market or backup capacity.

we will need to 1000X the traffic volume again before this stops
working again.
which should take about a year.

Heh. That should be interesting. :slight_smile:

In the long run capacity is likely to be capable of expanding at the rate
of moores law.

"Desired" bandwidth per end user appears to increase in a nonlinear manner
at the introduction of new protocols (i.e. HTTP, Kazaa).

If we have enough of these nonlinear transitions we might even someday be
able to make a moores law equivalent for end user bandwidth demand (the
chip industry has a few more years on us to be able to make empirical
conclusions regarding industry constants).

Then you could compare the curve of the end user bandwidth demand law to
the moores law curve and make interesting prognostications.

To illustrate how moores law and the hypothetical end user bandwidth
demand law are different, for anybody that has upgraded their personal
workstation to twice the processor speed or greater, to do the exact same
end user task (i.e. visit a website) the day after you upgraded did you
generate twice as much bandwidth? probably not.

Mike.

+----------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -----------------+

Been on vacation so sorry for the late response but we're talking fiber
here, not ICs. How about this for an analogy: When I upgraded from ISDN
to Cable, my Internet habits changed considerably. Large downloads were
no longer something to be avoided and that 250Kbps audio/video stream
could run in the background 24/7 without interfering with my other
traffic. While you may visit the same old web pages after upgrading your
computer, upgrading your connectivity typically results in significant
changes in traffic patterns. Computers have been capable of broadband
connectivity for decades. No need to upgrade to use more bandwidth. :slight_smile:

So let's change your analogy to "the day after you upgraded from dialup
to broadband..."

Just my 2�.

Best regards,