Who is a Tier 1?

A few years ago you could probably bamboozle them about your
secret sauce containing "transit free", "peering", "x exchange points"
and so on. Today I suspect they are less susceptible to that
kind of story and more likely to rely on the experience of
existing customers. And if the existing customers of L3 and
Cogent are experiencing agony, what kind of marketing story
does that tell?

Let me be the punching bag for pondering this on NANOG... What about the
roles of governments building a consortium with Teir-1 NSP's where those
backbone Tiers are regulated and have predefined, strictly enforced
rulesets they'd have to follow. The irony of this is that it sounds both
like a nightmare and a dream.

USTIER [peer] EUTIER [peer] ASIATIER
  > > >
   \ \ \
    \ \ \
$STATE_TIER $COUNTRY_TIER $COUNTRY_TIER

Where in the US there would be a main focal tier funded by this
consortium. This might minimize the roles of greedy corporate execs
breaking routes. It would be (again) funded by the gov, taxes, and monies
can be generated by peering with this network. The monies charged would be
sufficient to keep it running. In this plan, there could be less
mechanisms of Adelphia/Worldcom fuzzy math of selling a billion years
worth of bandwidth for write offs as well.

/* tip never write e-mail within the first hour of your waking morning */

if you just would have followed your own advise..

/* tip never write e-mail within the first hour of your waking morning

*/

Let me be the first to congratulate you on such
an excellent idea.

--Michael Dillon

J. Oquendo wrote:

Let me be the punching bag for pondering this on NANOG... What about the
roles of governments building a consortium with Teir-1 NSP's where those
backbone Tiers are regulated and have predefined, strictly enforced
rulesets they'd have to follow. The irony of this is that it sounds both
like a nightmare and a dream.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the Internet. This is exactly what
we did when we built the original (NSFnet). It worked!

We specified regional interconnection. If you wanted to connect, that's
where you had to connect, and you were required to take the traffic from
everybody else at the point of interconnection. No arguments.

This partitioning is exactly what we predicted in many meetings when
discussion the terms of the contracts.

Markets are inefficient for infrastructure and tend toward monopoly.

Idiot laissez-faire pseudo-libertarians forget that all markets require
regulation and politics.

J. Oquendo wrote:

> Let me be the punching bag for pondering this on NANOG... What about the
> roles of governments building a consortium with Teir-1 NSP's where those
> backbone Tiers are regulated and have predefined, strictly enforced
> rulesets they'd have to follow. The irony of this is that it sounds both
> like a nightmare and a dream.
>

</snip>

This partitioning is exactly what we predicted in many meetings when
discussion the terms of the contracts.

Markets are inefficient for infrastructure and tend toward monopoly.

How does replacing non-profit organisations (which most public IX'es
are) with government bodies and governmental legislation improve
anything...?

Idiot laissez-faire pseudo-libertarians forget that all markets require
regulation and politics.

But why government regulated instead of IX member regulated...?

Erik Haagsman wrote:

This partitioning is exactly what we predicted in many meetings when
discussion the terms of the contracts.

Markets are inefficient for infrastructure and tend toward monopoly.

How does replacing non-profit organisations (which most public IX'es
are) with government bodies and governmental legislation improve
anything...?

Government _is_ a non-profit organization, with generally broader
representation.

How does replacing a representative government with a smaller feudal
organization improve anything?

Idiot laissez-faire pseudo-libertarians forget that all markets require
regulation and politics.

But why government regulated instead of IX member regulated...?

Because as much as it's best not to rely on thugs with guns, I really
don't want the thugs with guns to be private armies.

How do you expect to enforce your "member" regulations?

Again (to keep this on-topic), this partitioning is exactly what we predicted. And I don't see your member regulations having any effect.

William Allen Simpson wrote:

How do you expect to enforce your "member" regulations?

Again (to keep this on-topic), this partitioning is exactly what we predicted. And I don't see your member regulations having any effect.

Following up on my own post, according to
   http://www.ams-ix.net/connected/

  Cogent, Open
  Level(3), Not public
  We Dare B.V., Open

So, what did your member organization do to resolve this partition. Cut
off Level(3)? Sue them?

And how quickly would you expect this resolution?

Compare and contrast with the well-respected Packet Clearing House:
   http://www.pch.net/

Let me be the punching bag for pondering this on NANOG... What about the
roles of governments building a consortium with Teir-1 NSP's where those
backbone Tiers are regulated and have predefined, strictly enforced
rulesets they'd have to follow. The irony of this is that it sounds both
like a nightmare and a dream.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the Internet. This is exactly what
we did when we built the original (NSFnet). It worked!

I would argue the NSFnet would not scale to today's Internet. Not to mention today's Internet has the added value of not sucking up 90% of NSF's budget.

We specified regional interconnection. If you wanted to connect, that's
where you had to connect, and you were required to take the traffic from
everybody else at the point of interconnection. No arguments.

This partitioning is exactly what we predicted in many meetings when
discussion the terms of the contracts.

I'm wondering why "this partitioning" - predicted or not - is a "bad thing"?

Markets are inefficient for infrastructure and tend toward monopoly.

Strangely, the Internet has not tended toward monopoly. If you think otherwise, you have been reading too many press releases.

Idiot laissez-faire pseudo-libertarians forget that all markets require
regulation and politics.

Politics are a natural part of human interaction. Regulation sometimes follows.

The Internet is fairly unregulated. It works fairly well - better than many regulated industries.

I guess I'm missing your point?

* wsimpson@greendragon.com (William Allen Simpson) [Thu 06 Oct 2005, 19:10 CEST]:

Following up on my own post, according to
  http://www.ams-ix.net/connected/

Useful page, isn't it?

Cogent, Open
Level(3), Not public
We Dare B.V., Open

So, what did your member organization do to resolve this partition. Cut off Level(3)? Sue them?

That particular member organisation has a policy of not interfering with its members' peering policies. It expects its members to send packets only to people who explicitly asked for it over the shared infrastructure (via announcements of prefixes via BGP), and to pay their bills on time.

  -- Niels.

Niels Bakker wrote:

* wsimpson@greendragon.com (William Allen Simpson) [Thu 06 Oct 2005, 19:10 CEST]:

Following up on my own post, according to
  http://www.ams-ix.net/connected/

Useful page, isn't it?

I wish that all IXs had one.

Cogent, Open
Level(3), Not public
We Dare B.V., Open

So, what did your member organization do to resolve this partition. Cut off Level(3)? Sue them?

That particular member organisation has a policy of not interfering with its members' peering policies. It expects its members to send packets only to people who explicitly asked for it over the shared infrastructure (via announcements of prefixes via BGP), and to pay their bills on time.

Arguably a very good thing. IXs shouldn't be in the "enforcement"
business. That's for governments.

(As you will remember, I was refuting his generalization that "private"
organizations are somehow preferable to "public" organizations. It has
always been my preference to argue with specifics in hand.)

I wish everyones was as complete as LINX's:
https://www.linx.net/www_public/our_members/peering_matrix/
http://green.linx.net/cgi-bin/peering_matrix2.cgi

-Hank

<snip>

>> Cogent, Open
>> Level(3), Not public
>> We Dare B.V., Open
>>
>> So, what did your member organization do to resolve this partition.
>> Cut off Level(3)? Sue them?
>
>
> That particular member organisation has a policy of not interfering with
> its members' peering policies. It expects its members to send packets
> only to people who explicitly asked for it over the shared
> infrastructure (via announcements of prefixes via BGP), and to pay their
> bills on time.
>
Arguably a very good thing. IXs shouldn't be in the "enforcement"
business. That's for governments.

Exactly the reason I don't want governments anywhere near an IX. Every
network connected to an IX should be allowed to enforce it's own
internal policies when connecting with other networks *without* a
governmental body trying to enforce certain rules and regulations. One
network only peers with a select few, the other only on basis of
bandwidth profile and some with as many peers as possible. Without one
telling the other what to do or someone sitting behind a desk trying to
come up with a Grand Unified Peering Policy that everyone should adhere
to. Fine by me.

(As you will remember, I was refuting his generalization that "private"
organizations are somehow preferable to "public" organizations. It has
always been my preference to argue with specifics in hand.)

I never generalised, I merely pointed out that creating governmental
IX's has nog benefits compared to the current IX's. AMS-IX, DE-CIX,
LINX, etc. etc are open to everyone wanting to connect, that's public
enough for me, without having to be goverment controlled.

Erik Haagsman wrote:
>>This partitioning is exactly what we predicted in many meetings when
>>discussion the terms of the contracts.
>>
>>Markets are inefficient for infrastructure and tend toward monopoly.
>
>
> How does replacing non-profit organisations (which most public IX'es
> are) with government bodies and governmental legislation improve
> anything...?
>
Government _is_ a non-profit organization, with generally broader
representation.

How does replacing a representative government with a smaller feudal
organization improve anything?

The current status quo has IX's in the hands of private but open
organisations, run by it's members. Replacing govermental organisations
by now is purely hypothetical, it's already happened and in most
countries outside the US there never were government controlled IX's for
IMO very good reasons, with member's freedom to formulate their own
policies as number one.

>>Idiot laissez-faire pseudo-libertarians forget that all markets require
>>regulation and politics.
>
>
> But why government regulated instead of IX member regulated...?
>
Because as much as it's best not to rely on thugs with guns, I really
don't want the thugs with guns to be private armies.

Ah yes, we want public armies with guns to rely on, just like we rely on
them at the moment regulating software patents, ISP and telco data
tapping, all those nifty little ideas that make our lives so much
better.

Erik Haagsman wrote:

Arguably a very good thing. IXs shouldn't be in the "enforcement"
business. That's for governments.

Exactly the reason I don't want governments anywhere near an IX. Every
network connected to an IX should be allowed to enforce it's own
internal policies when connecting with other networks *without* a
governmental body trying to enforce certain rules and regulations.

Networks should not be in the enforcement business. They have no guns.

IXs should not be in the enforcement business. They have no guns.

Even those IXs with MPLA policy have to rely on law and courts for
enforcement -- that is, those with guns.

I repeat my initial assertion, to wit:
>> This partitioning is exactly what we predicted in many meetings when
>> discussi[ng] the terms of the contracts.
>>
>> Markets are inefficient for infrastructure and tend toward monopoly.

When the "internal policies" -- which in this case are not technical,
but rather commercial advantage -- are against public policy, that is
the realm of governments.

One
network only peers with a select few, the other only on basis of
bandwidth profile and some with as many peers as possible. Without one
telling the other what to do or someone sitting behind a desk trying to
come up with a Grand Unified Peering Policy that everyone should adhere
to. Fine by me.

I'm afraid your head-in-the-sand approach doesn't appear to be working
well at this time. Major network partition, affecting thousands of
networks and tens (or hundreds) of thousands of actual people, 48 hours
and counting.

Moreover, I thought it might be worthwhile to check what you might have posted previously, and found that you started posting on NANOG in 2004,
during another L(3) partition. Methinks thou doeth protest too much.

I'm not entirely sure that you are a shill for L(3), but please explain
your personal interest? Especially as a Northern European posting on a
North American operator's list?

<snip>

I repeat my initial assertion, to wit:
>> This partitioning is exactly what we predicted in many meetings when
>> discussi[ng] the terms of the contracts.
>>
>> Markets are inefficient for infrastructure and tend toward monopoly.

When the "internal policies" -- which in this case are not technical,
but rather commercial advantage -- are against public policy, that is
the realm of governments.

So we want to revert to a model where the goverment starts influencing
company policy based on what criteria...? Networks are commercial
endeavours by default, since they cost money to run and need to generate
revenue stay in existence, at least last time I checked. Unless you'd
like the entire Internet to be under governmental control I don't see
how you'd want a government to enforce any policy. This sounds very much
like trying to turn ISP's into semi-public companies, which they're not
and IMO shouldn't be.

> One
> network only peers with a select few, the other only on basis of
> bandwidth profile and some with as many peers as possible. Without one
> telling the other what to do or someone sitting behind a desk trying to
> come up with a Grand Unified Peering Policy that everyone should adhere
> to. Fine by me.
>
I'm afraid your head-in-the-sand approach doesn't appear to be working
well at this time. Major network partition, affecting thousands of
networks and tens (or hundreds) of thousands of actual people, 48 hours
and counting.

This is definitely a bad thing but not a problem for governments to
solve. Bringing the government to the table will create more problems
than solve them.

Moreover, I thought it might be worthwhile to check what you might have
posted previously, and found that you started posting on NANOG in 2004,
during another L(3) partition.

Glad you take an interest.

Methinks thou doeth protest too much.

Perhaps, but I'd like companies and market forces to solve these
problems, not governments. ISP's are free to choose (multiple) upstreams
they wish for, people are free to choose whichever ISP they want, and
SLA's and contracts *should* be there to protect people from stupidity
like this Cogent/L(3) pissing contest.

I'm not entirely sure that you are a shill for L(3), but please explain
your personal interest? Especially as a Northern European posting on a
North American operator's list?

I never knew I was Swedish, but thanks for telling me.
We've got L(3) as one of our transits, so I do take an interest. Most of
my larger upstreams are fully or partly NA based and we send quite a bit
of traffic to these parts so I *thought* I'd follow the list and pitch
in when I felt like doing so.

Even those IXs with MPLA policy have to rely on law and courts for
enforcement -- that is, those with guns.

In the United States, as in most countries, there is an
explicit separation of the courts from the enforcement
of laws. For instance, in the United States, the Executive
Branch is in charge of the guys with guns, while the Judicial
branch only deals with making decisions about the application
of the laws created by the Legislative branch. The laws
are executed and enforced by the Executive branch, hence
the name.

Laws only need to be enforced when there is a dispute.
Laws and regulations, do not necessarily imply that
enforcement action is needed. Many people and organizations
comply with laws for reasons other than the existence of
enforcers. For instance, an organization may feel that it
is in the industry's best interests to comply with regulations
and therefore it does so in order to set an example for
its competitors and to attract customers.

Regulations also do not imply the involvement of governments.
It is possible for industries to self-regulate such as the
ARIN policies which are a product of the ARIN membership,
i.e. companies who use IP addresses in their networks.

There are also currently attempts to establish self-regulation
in the email industry. In the past there was some regulation
of Internet peering by the members of an industry organization
in the USA called CIX.

I'm afraid your head-in-the-sand approach doesn't appear to be working
well at this time. Major network partition, affecting thousands of
networks and tens (or hundreds) of thousands of actual people, 48 hours
and counting.

If the press would truly understand this event then they would
be reporting this as a *MAJOR* flaw in the business model of
the largest ISPs. The absence of regulation in Internet peering
allows this type of situation to come about. It is my opinion
that the network and the Internet business would both be stronger
if there was some regulation of peering and IP/MPLS network
interconnection.

This could be done in a couple of ways. One is to have an industry
association develop self-regulation in conjunction with major end
users of network services. The other would be for regulation to be
imposed from without by some kind of interconnect or monitoring
business like Equinix or Keynote. The analogy here is the New York
Stock Exchange which is a 3rd party which monitors and interconnects
the buyers and sellers of shares. In the case of Internet operators
I don't foresee the need for an SEC equivalent unless operators
cannot agree to disclose their peering agreements and the technical
details of their interconnects.

A couple of good things can come out of this "open peering" model.
One is that disclosure of the technical details, including packet
drop, buffer consumption, and bandwidth, would lead to more reliable
interconnects and the ability to provide quality of service SLAs
across provider networks. The other possible benefit is to develop
more sophisticated interconnect variants such as MPLS VPN interconnects
and CDN or multicast interconnects.

--Michael Dillon

Growing mainstream press today, e.g.,

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/10/07/dispute_threatens_to_snarl_internet/

Note the title:
"Dispute threatens to snarl Internet: Service providers' row may spur push for global regulation"

Quick showing of hands:
How many people think that the disputants are not-so-secretly hoping that the title is accurate, because it represents a far better future for them than what our newly re-engineered "market" for transport services is likely to provide?

(a conspiratorially good morning to all)

TV

Google Goes to Washington

One of the issues Google will tackle has become news
this week: Level 3 and Cogent Communications are
involved in a spat that has made Web sites on each
network inaccessible or very slow to users on the
opposite network. Google said the government has a
responsibility to monitor the Internet so events like
this do not occur.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Google_Goes_to_Washington/1128691070

Ross Hosman

<snip>

Laws only need to be enforced when there is a dispute.
Laws and regulations, do not necessarily imply that
enforcement action is needed. Many people and organizations
comply with laws for reasons other than the existence of
enforcers. For instance, an organization may feel that it
is in the industry's best interests to comply with regulations
and therefore it does so in order to set an example for
its competitors and to attract customers.

Regulations also do not imply the involvement of governments.
It is possible for industries to self-regulate such as the
ARIN policies which are a product of the ARIN membership,
i.e. companies who use IP addresses in their networks.

Very good point and IMHO the preferred way of dealing with these kinds
of issues without the overhead of specific legislation and often
stifling governmental intervention. The approach you outline below seems
very plausible, with a regulatory organisation of some sort driven by
the industry itself protecting both ourselves as well as our customers
from idiocy like the whole Cogent/L(3) thing. It would improve both
better interconnections and network coverage (and thus network quality
IMO) as well as more transparency in peering and interconnection
relations. Both good things for end-users and xSP's alike.

Another snippet from same article: