http://www.advancedippipeline.com/166400372
- ferg
Interesting. No ability to opt-out, and no signup option. So will they use the customer's billing address, attempt to determine location based on IP address or some other voodoo? It'll be interesting to see if they manage to handle vonage boxes that are connected over VPN tunnels that terminate far from where the IP addresses "appear" to be. Also, Vonage promotes the "take your phone service with you" idea, so there's a real opportunity for problems. This should be interesting to watch.
If you look at the webpage of telecomsystems (http://www.telecomsys.com) they state that their platform is GPS based.
I see no other way of doing this reliably than to put some kind of GPS device into the VoIP unit.
Article regarding indoor GPS and other locator service.
<http://www.gpsworld.com/gpsworld/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=3053>
If you can put a locator into a cellphone, I see no reason why you cannot do the same in a VoIP unit.
Well... It will be most amusing if the 911 dispatchers start a deluge
of calls and letters asking the FCC "What the hell were you idiots thinking?"
when they realize what the FCC has done here.
It's a bad rule on the FCC's part showing they don't understand the
technology and think that VOIP is just TPC/IP (The Phone Company
over Internet Protocol). I hope it doesn't kill anyone, but, other
than that likely outcome, I gotta say it will serve them right.
Owen
If you can put a locator into a cellphone, I see no reason why you cannot
do the same in a VoIP unit.
Just because you can does not mean it is a good idea. I like being
able to have a phone that cannot be accurately located. I won't be
buying any VOIP products that can.
Owen
Then I guess you should talk to FCC and ask them to lighten the demands on the VOIP operators to provide that service.
Btw, since the demand is the same for mobile phones, I guess most mobiles sold in the US will have a locator chip, if they don't already? Do you know what your mobile phone is telling others about you?
This issue is a typical conflict of interests between security and privacy. Obvisouly a large part of the population likes the security and is less concerned about privacy in this case (at least judging from the polls that were presented on the webpage I references in my last post).
use the customer's billing address, attempt to determine location based on IP address or some other voodoo? It'll be interesting to see if they
If you look at the webpage of telecomsystems (http://www.telecomsys.com) they state that their platform is GPS based.
I see no other way of doing this reliably than to put some kind of GPS device into the VoIP unit.
While I agree that GPS is the likely answer, I wasn't expecting the ability to work inside computer rooms and basements. Guess based on the following article that it's possible. So, I guess we'll be seeing Vonage replacing the Cisco ATA-186's with something that does GPS.
I suppose a downside is folks using the Vonage boxes outside the US via VPN will be traceable by Vonage and could get shut down, if Vonage wanted to enforce such.
Article regarding indoor GPS and other locator service.
<http://www.gpsworld.com/gpsworld/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=3053>
If you can put a locator into a cellphone, I see no reason why you cannot do the same in a VoIP unit.
VOIP units don't walk near windows or outdoors, but given the claims made in the article, I guess it'll be possible.
Perhaps some nice inexpensive NTP sync hardware will come out of this too. If the chips will work in the environments they list, perhaps they'll also work in data centers, if all the tweaks discussed don't affect clock sync accuracy too much.
I think the ground based radio transmitters needed for indoor operation isn't around much outside the US. I was very surprised when I got a cellphone-based GPS navigator from AVIS last time I was in the US, and it started working inside the terminal building.
I had one of those, too. It was a Nextel phone. However, I don't believe those use actual GPS signals. I believe those are actually using triangulation from the cell phone towers (e.g., Time Difference of Arrival, Angle of Arrival, and/or Enhanced Observed Time Difference). They aren't as accurate as GPS, but they will give you reasonably accurate position information anywhere you can get a decent cell phone signal.
I have heard about new highly accurate/low-cost single-chip clocks that would help improve accuracy of cell phone tower triangulation, and would hopefully also be something that could be put in standard desktop and laptop computers, making it much easier to run software such as NTP to keep the system clocks much closer to the correct time.
Perhaps -- but how does it work inside? Are we relying/requiring the user to put up a GPS antenna?
google 'dead reckoning'.
The higher end nav systems and gyros, for specifically this reason.
>I see no other way of doing this reliably than to put some kind of
>GPS device into the VoIP unit.While I agree that GPS is the likely answer, I wasn't expecting the
ability to work inside computer rooms and basements.
It doesn't need to work in basements, etc. It only needs to keep
a record of the last location it was at when the signal faded
away. The emergency service vehicles probably can't get any closer
than that anyway.
--Michael Dillon
I wonder how that works with VoIP ATA adapters. Last time I looked
they didn't work while I was carrying it around in its box from the
dealer home.
To sum it up: Using GPS to geo-locate VoIP phones or adapters is broken
by design.
No, it isn't. Relying on satellite connectivity to do so broken, but that's not how it works anymore. Did you even read the article regarding indoor GPS that I posted earlier in the thread?
Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
To sum it up: Using GPS to geo-locate VoIP phones or adapters is broken by design.
No, it isn't. Relying on satellite connectivity to do so broken, but that's not how it works anymore. Did you even read the article regarding indoor GPS that I posted earlier in the thread?
I did but those ground based transmitters are only for improving accuracy
by sending you the position delta determined vs. real for that region. It
doesn't help if you don't receive a GPS signal. That ain't satellite radio
which is being terristrically re-broadcast.
For more information have a look the descriptions of these augumented GPS
systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS#Techniques_to_improve_GPS_accuracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilateration
To sum it up: Without having good GPS reception you can't do trilateration
and without it you can't apply any accuracy improvements.
It doesn't need to work in basements, etc. It only needs to keep
a record of the last location it was at when the signal faded
away. The emergency service vehicles probably can't get any closer
than that anyway.
In the US, that might be true, but, I'm betting that could be very wrong
in places like London. I'm betting the station where you boarded the
Tube could be a LONG way from where you make the 911 call.
Owen
In the US, that might be true, but, I'm betting that could be very wrong
in places like London. I'm betting the station where you boarded the
Tube could be a LONG way from where you make the 911 call.
There are very few places in the underground tube system where you
can make calls on your mobile. Outside central London where the tube
runs aboveground I would expect that GPS reception would be available
wherever mobile reception is available, after all the tube trains
have lots of windows.
But you do point out that it would be shortsighted of mobile
operators to not use the location information that is already
available in the cell base stations. As for VoIP, well if that
is not running over GPRS or 3G then I suppose it's running over
Wi-Fi and that the user has to authenticate in order for the
Wi-Fi access point to accept his MAC address. Maybe we should
lobby government to require Wi-Fi access point manufacturers
to include location information in their devices. After that,
the VoIP operators and the Wi-Fi access operators should be
able to sort out some protocol for sharing the location info.
Welcome to the 21st century! They never said it was going
to be easy.
--Michael Dillon
This is unlikely. GPS reception is usually determined by sight of
horizon. For example the navigation system in my car has trouble
from time to time spotting enough GPS satellites when I'm driving
in the inner city of Zurich. It keeps itself updated by compass
and tracking the movements/velocity of the car. If a car mounted
GPS has trouble keeping up with GPS in a city I highly doubt that
a small mobile phone without any line of sight at all would be able
to get any meaningful GPS signal reception. The low number of active
GPS satellites and their concentration over the middle east don't
help getting accuracy and reception higher up in US and EU. The
new EU system called Galileo has a larger number of satellites
planned which makes chances higher to have a number of the in sight
all the time. On top of that it is 20 years further in technology
refinement than GPS. OTO it ain't there yet and any speculation
on how good it will be is moot until we can see ourselfs.
Looking at:
http://people.howstuffworks.com/location-tracking4.htm
"Phase II - The final phase requires carriers to place GPS receivers in phones in order to deliver more specific latitude and longitude location information. Location information must be accurate within 164 to 984 feet (50-300 meters)."
It does look like the requirements in E911 are designed around what can be done via cellphone based location services without GPS (ie some kind of distance to towers/angle approach).
Perhaps the tube wasn't the best example, although, I remember making cell
calls from places in stations I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten GPS
coverage.
In any case, the fundamental assumption that detailed location information
for
e911 on every phone or phone-like capability is desirable is, in my opinion,
flawed. I understand why the police-state zealots at places like the FBI
want it, but, I'm not sure why network operators are so anxious to solve
this
problem.
Personally, I'm perfectly happy that my laptop and it's SIP soft-phone
aren't
location traceable at all times.
Owen