Upstream BGP community support

while i can understand folk's wanting to signal upstream using
communities, and i know it's all the rage. one issue needs to be
raised.

BGP communities are all the rage? I don't think this is new concept or
fad. Signaling behaviors as well as informing users of types of routes
have been around for awhile. For example, RFC1998 (Aug 1996) outlines
some of these behaviors with modifying local preference. Even Sprint
was advertising the ability to not advertise or prepend to individual
peers back in 2002
(http://web.archive.org/web/20020607092619/www.sprintlink.net/policy/bgp.html).

so i ain't sayin' don't do it. after all, who would deny you the
ability to show off your bgp macho?

How is providing better capabilities for your customers macho? People
have been using these knobs 10 years ago and it worked then (just as
well as it works now).

Drive Slow (as there are trick-or-treaters out tonight)

The answer is fairly simple. Does your business benefit by having the
ability to modify routing strategy as you see fit?

hint: we live in a commons

Yes. I was about to ask Tony "what if *their* business benefits by NOT
giving you the ability to modify routing strategy as you see fit?"

What's the answer then?

Regards, K.

There is always a peering policy in place and I am sure you have a few requirements in mind and you will be evaluating costs carefully as well as options thoroughly before making a decision on which SP to go for. I am sure technical teams are flexifle to accomodate some bespoke private peering connections and have defined transit products in place so you can always negotiate your timescales w/ them as well as your technical needs.

As Louis Mamakos pointed out back in 1992 or so, it's hard to conceal the
existence of said peering:

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~hansell/humor/wormholes

(Unfortunately, this is the only copy online I was able to find, and it's
missing the e-mail headers. The one I had has gone astray. Gene Spafford used
to have a copy online for a class, but it too appears to have evaporated.
Anybody got a pointer to the original?

Andy B. wrote:

Hi,

Quick question: Would you buy transit from someone who does not
support BGP communities?

Without reading any more of your post, or any of the replies:

- because leadership has a better bandwidth deal
- cuz even though shit in one hand is heavier than hope in the other,
you can't convince anyone

What sucks:

- having to deal with transit from someone who performs no filtering
whatsoever
- dealing with transit who DOESN'T RESPOND TO REQUESTS FOR BGP PEERING
- dealing with transits who don't know what v6 is, or won't respond to
requests (at all), even though the network who is purchasing their
transport has better v6 redundancy than v4.

I am AS14270. BGP with me... its been two years... you've got to have an
engineer who can set up a session by now, no?

Steve

If you read the original post, the poster implied he would benefit from communities.

If you would like to discuss who,what, when,why and the theoretical, please start your own thread.

tv

Sounds like someone needs to send you a copy of "They Just Don't Want To
Peer With You". :slight_smile:

Richard A Steenbergen wrote:

Richard A Steenbergen wrote:

I am AS14270. BGP with me... its been two years... you've got to have an
engineer who can set up a session by now, no?

Sounds like someone needs to send you a copy of "They Just Don't Want To
Peer With You". :slight_smile:

fwiw,

- I have a spotless BGP record v6-wise.
- even though I am a small provider, I have ops from large providers who
will vouch for me
- we have s/rtbh everywhere
- we ensure that my network does not spam (and if it does, I collapse
things quickly)
- even though I'm small, I'll entertain legitimate complaints from known
ops immediately, and fix them
- I have an *extremely* tight iBGP practice happening. Although I'm not
a CCIE, I know what I'm doing. To be honest, I think that I could help
my upstream.

Meh. Here's to no redundancy.

Come on guys, without names, feel the clue bat, and finally get back to me.

Steve

Richard A Steenbergen wrote:

I am AS14270. BGP with me... its been two years... you've got to have an
engineer who can set up a session by now, no?

Sounds like someone needs to send you a copy of "They Just Don't Want To
Peer With You". :slight_smile:

...and directly to your statement:

send the book along. I'm not looking for a 'peer'.

This is a situation that my PROVIDER won't set up a BGP SESSION with me,
and they continue to STATICALLY ROUTE my ARIN ALLOCATED block to me.

They advertise it from their AS. Their AS advertises known bad space to
me (which I've complained about). Their AS, In my humble opinion, is
completely unreliable and non-trustworthy. My ARIN block is advertised
by them, and I HATE it. They will not respond to me when I ask them to
allow me to advertise my own space to them.

Of course, having them 'listen' for my space, it would also allow me to
advertise to other 'providers' which would allow for redundancy....

Note...I have a /21. It's not like I'm advertising a /24, nor am I
trying to do something that isn't in the best interest of my community.

Steve

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Richard A Steenbergen wrote:

I am AS14270. BGP with me... its been two years... you've got to have an
engineer who can set up a session by now, no?

Sounds like someone needs to send you a copy of "They Just Don't Want To
Peer With You". :slight_smile:

...and directly to your statement:

send the book along. I'm not looking for a 'peer'.

This is a situation that my PROVIDER won't set up a BGP SESSION with me,
and they continue to STATICALLY ROUTE my ARIN ALLOCATED block to me.

Perhaps it's time to find a new isp, something called adsl4u.ca doesn't
sounds like a wholesale transit provider.

joel jaeggli wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Richard A Steenbergen wrote:

I am AS14270. BGP with me... its been two years... you've got to have an
engineer who can set up a session by now, no?

Sounds like someone needs to send you a copy of "They Just Don't Want To
Peer With You". :slight_smile:

...and directly to your statement:

send the book along. I'm not looking for a 'peer'.

This is a situation that my PROVIDER won't set up a BGP SESSION with me,
and they continue to STATICALLY ROUTE my ARIN ALLOCATED block to me.

Perhaps it's time to find a new isp, something called adsl4u.ca doesn't
sounds like a wholesale transit provider.

Who do you recommend?

I give my situation to people, and they run...

Steve

What's the block?

-M<

...

I am AS14270. BGP with me...

I tried, but I couldn't find you in http://peeringdb.org/

its been two years... you've got to have an
engineer who can set up a session by now, no?

Steve

You might consider just taking matters into your own hands, and
getting a connection to an exchange point, adding an entry into
peeringdb, and start doing BGP with other folks; announce your
/21 directly to people, and it's likely your upstream will suddenly
wake up and smell the coffee when they realize you've actually
become truly multihomed in spite of them. Nothing shows clue
factor quite as much as, well, practical demonstrations--and turning
up sessions with other networks at an exchange point is a really
good way to let folks see the level at which you're ready to play.

Best of luck!

Matt

Martin Hannigan wrote:

    Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
    >> I am AS14270. BGP with me... its been two years... you've got to
    have an
    >> engineer who can set up a session by now, no?
    >
    > Sounds like someone needs to send you a copy of "They Just Don't
    Want To
    > Peer With You". :slight_smile:

    ...and directly to your statement:

    send the book along. I'm not looking for a 'peer'.

    This is a situation that my PROVIDER won't set up a BGP SESSION with me,
    and they continue to STATICALLY ROUTE my ARIN ALLOCATED block to me.

    They advertise it from their AS. Their AS advertises known bad space to
    me (which I've complained about). Their AS, In my humble opinion, is
    completely unreliable and non-trustworthy. My ARIN block is advertised
    by them, and I HATE it. They will not respond to me when I ask them to
    allow me to advertise my own space to them.

    Of course, having them 'listen' for my space, it would also allow me to
    advertise to other 'providers' which would allow for redundancy....

    Note...I have a /21. It's not like I'm advertising a /24, nor am I
    trying to do something that isn't in the best interest of my community.

    Steve

What's the block?

Martin,

I learnt early on that NANOG is not suitable to stage a reliable
'notification'. I was merely remarking (perhaps out of frustration) on
the thread.

Steve

To answer your question, obviously each network should do whatever is in their best interest. But isn't it in a transit provider's best interest to make their customers happy? :slight_smile:

However, I'm pretty sure that's not what Randy meant. Randy frequently (and correctly) points out that the Internet is a shared resource. What you do can affect others.

BGP sucks, but it's the only thing we have. So try not to break it.

OTOH: The Internet is not a science project. I'm not even going to say "any more", since no one should be confused about that today. Transit providers are almost always for-profit companies. These two basic facts create an interesting dynamic. Everyone wants to do what is best for themselves to make more money, but what one network does affects other networks. Finding a happy medium is hard, mmmmm-KAY.

I personally believe transit providers should support communities. I don't think the added complexity is too dangers, and I think it will help add to the profit of providers. Others may disagree. But as someone (either Richard or Paul, sometimes I have trouble telling them apart) pointed out, it's been happening for a long time. "Past performance is no guarantee of future profit", but it does give one at least a little confidence that supporting community tags will not collapse the Internet tomorrow.

End of day, I'll just fall back on what I always say: Your Network, Your Decision. But try to remember that Your Network is connected to everyone else's network.

jim deleskie wrote:

Agree'd :slight_smile:

Here is the problem as I see it. Sure some % fo the people using BGP
are bright nuff to use some upstreams communities, but sadly many are
not. So this ends up breaking one or more networks, who in turn twist
more dials causing other changes.. rinse, wash and repeat. But like
Randy said who am I to stop anyone from playing... just means those of
us with clue will be able to continue to earn a pay check for a very
long time still :slight_smile:

i would rather earn it by designing things, not by cleaning up messes
made by kiddies needing to show off.

For those who try their best, given your comment, what in the fsck is
one to do?

What practices should be followed?

Is this about not pushing knobs, or is this about people with big dicks?

What really should we do? I mean those with 2691's still in practice.

What do we do? We watch for guidance from here. It seems as though
people are making a mochary of communities.

How many steps am I really behind?

Steve

i would rather earn it by designing things, not by cleaning up messes
made by kiddies needing to show off.

For those who try their best, given your comment, what in the fsck is
one to do?

[ i prefer to speak in the first person, not tell you what you should
  do. ]

i try to use as few tricks, knobs, and clever things as possible and
still get my job done. i try to be extremely conscious of, and minimal,
when what i am doing effects or is visible to my neighbors and/or the
global net.

i try to complicate the internals of my network as little as possible,
after all, complexity == opex and i value my time, it is a non-renewable
resource.

i prefer to be seen as an old and lazy minimalist, not a clever person.
clever was a pejorative where/when i was brought up.

randy

Translation:

<randybush> You damn kids! Get off my lawn!

But seriously now, the reason we have these squishy things taking up
space between our ears in the first place is so we can come up with new
ideas and better ways to solve our problems. Obviously you can take it
too far, I'm sure we've all seen examples of absurdly over-complicated
designs which existed only for the edification of someone's ego, but I
have never seen a intelligent and well thought out BGP community system
do anything other than make everyone's life easier. I don't know who
these people are who you claim are busy breaking things with
communities, but I've never seen them. Being clever is a good thing when
it helps you find new ways to do more with less, and those who can't
innovate in this industry are dooming themselves to obsolescence.