Ungodly packet loss rates

> Looking for opinions here: Do I have the right, as a citizen of the
> internet, to phone up the NOC of another major provider to solve packet
> loss through their routers?

You should talk to your provider who should try resolution of problem with the
provider in question.

Exactly. Hierarchy is mandatory at this level, both for
the physical network, and for the logical structure
of customers, ISP's, and NSP's.

This is the only scalable way for this to work. Having various folks call up
NOCs for various problem is pretty close to a nightmare scenario for someone
who is concerned with NOC staffing and response time.

It simply means that social filters become required, in
much the same way that packet filters, and route filters
are now becoming standard on any well-connected network.

The fact that this approach may current not work well means that we should fix
the inter-provider cooperation, rather then routing around it by having end
users call NOCs of providers.

Agreed. End users should never be calling outside their ISP;
it is NOT their place to solve problems for their ISP, for
multiple reasons, one of which is that if any of our
customers worked directly with MCI, for example, to solve
a problem they saw that we were not yet aware of, and
they and MCI solved the issue without involving us, we'd
have no realization that a problem had been developing.
We'd much rather have our customers talk to US if they
feel a problem is developing, let us analyze the issue,
and contact the parties we feel are most appropriate.
In this way, we know what changes were made, and why,
and we have a history to refer to later.

If we simply show up, and find that a peering session
has been turned off, or that a specific IP block has
been re-advertised through a secondary link to try to
shift routing, we have no background, no history of
why that change might have been made if it has been
a private effort between an individual and another
ISP. Communication THROUGH the hierarchy is essential
if changes are to be maintained and supported.
Otherwise, we'll all be working against each
other, trying to second guess and bypass each
other's efforts.

If this happened, I wouldn't be surprised to see NOC phone numbers becoming
semi secret or requiring authentication.

Ask for the customer number, or for the contact info/callback number
if it's another ISP. We've found that in the case if the
semi-clueless end user, asking for a customer number is
enough to get them to confess that they're not really
one of OUR customers. Those who try to bluff their
way past don't usually make it past the "can I have your
callback number and contact info" if they try to
pretend to be calling representing a neighboring

This is what I mean by "social filters"; it's rather
like an access list, only not quite so strict. By
imposing enough of a barrier that only those who
know what they're doing will pass the test, you
limit the random interruptions and noise that
would otherwise bog you down, and cause trouble.
*grin* It's almost like having to give your
driver's license number to prove you're an

Maybe we need NANOG to issue "Clue Factor License Numbers"
to network engineers and NOC employees that we can read
off to each other when we call as one ISP/NSP to another... :slight_smile:

well, enough random blathering, back to the grind.


Matt Petach
doing his best to NOT respond to any of the original