It is interesting to see some of the sites that not only use(d) the MAPS
lists for free, but didn't even bother to do the zone transfer mode
(which reduces the load on the MAPS servers and speeds up your local
use).
At least one of us thinks the zone transfer mode was not free; and,
at least one of us thinks the sendmail configuration we were using was
taken from the vix.com site as is.
At least one of us has a reputation for being wrong from time to time.
It was, until just recently.
I think MAPS managed to DOS themselves. Since they are refusing queries
BIND can't cache the response and so it just keeps trying with every new
e-mail. The traffic hitting MAPS servers has to be impressive.
Mark Radabaugh
Amplex
(419) 833-3635
Steven J. Sobol
This seems very similar to what happened to a couple of the ORBS mirrors when ORBS shut down.
Eventually, one of them decided to just start returning "127.0.0.2" for every lookup (or some such), which caused lots of people to reject-all-mail until they fixed their configs.
Not that I think MAPS would do such a thing, but it may be one of the few ways they can fix the large installed base pointing at them and not ceasing as they're supposed to.
D
Once upon a time, Larry Sheldon <lsheldon@creighton.edu> said:
> It is interesting to see some of the sites that not only use(d) the MAPS
> lists for free, but didn't even bother to do the zone transfer mode
> (which reduces the load on the MAPS servers and speeds up your local
> use).At least one of us thinks the zone transfer mode was not free; and,
You always had to sign a paper for the RBL zone transfer, but RSS and
DUL were not restricted at all. All three were restricted a couple of
months ago with the requirement that you pay. We decided that it was
well worth it.
If this is truly what is happening with Yahoo (and others - just
mentioning them by name because someone else said they are one with the
problem), even after the subscription for zone transfer went into
effect, I would have figured they could afford to pay 5� per mailbox per
year (and MAPS might have even worked out a better rate than that for
the big guys).
at least one of us thinks the sendmail configuration we were using was
taken from the vix.com site as is.
You don't have to change your MTA config for zone transfer mode. You
just configure the nameservers your MTA uses to do the zone transfers.
The MTA still makes the requests to the nameserver, but the nameserver
now has the data directly without having to go look it up on the
Internet.
At least one of us has a reputation for being wrong from time to time.
I don't think I've been around here enough to come up with a reputation,
good, bad, or indifferent. 
Yo Chris!
..., I would have figured they could afford to pay 5� per mailbox per
year (and MAPS might have even worked out a better rate than that for
the big guys).
http://www.mail-abuse.org/feestructure.html
Per year, for $1,000 users, cheapest option, standard pricing
RBL+ $1,250
DUL $500
RSS $700
$2,450
or $2.40/per mailbox per year. Sorry my budget does not go there...
RGDS
GARY
but RBL+ seems to include every one of their databases.
Vivien
RBL+ includes RBL,DUL, and RSS in a single lookup
Which means it'd be $1.25 per user, because paying twice for DUL and RSS is mondo-silly.
D
Which is to show you what can happen to those that entrust control of
their communications to a third party. The commercialization of the lil'
MAPS charity proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it was just another
clever ploy for them to make a living at it. The brilliant idea: have
everybody pay a small toll on email. Blackhole thy opponents. Quote:
"There will be a day when folks will need to pay to transit email."
(Paul Vixie, 1998)
That day has come.
The inclusion of maps.vix.com references in the sendmail code has lead
to predictable consequences. Let's hope this will serve as a warning to
all sysadmins who can infere what's wrong with enterprises like MAPS
from this incident.
--Mitch
NetSide
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RBL+ includes the DUL and RSS data, so you're only asked to pay $1.25 per
mailbox.
That's right! I think it's just evil that they might want to cover their
costs and maybe be able to eat, drink, and pay their rent. All the
necessities of life should be provided by the state after all!
Whatever. If you find the service valuable, then you'll pay for it, if
you don't, then don't use it and go away.
Once upon a time, Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com> said:
> ..., I would have figured they could afford to pay 5� per mailbox per
> year (and MAPS might have even worked out a better rate than that for
> the big guys).http://www.mail-abuse.org/feestructure.html
Per year, for $1,000 users, cheapest option, standard pricing
RBL+ $1,250
DUL $500
RSS $700
$2,450or $2.40/per mailbox per year. Sorry my budget does not go there...
RBL+ already _includes_ DUL and RSS - that is how it differs from plain
RBL. So, you only need the RBL+ (you've just about doubled your cost
for no reason). Also, I was talking about zone transfer mode. If you
only loaded the zone on a nameserver running on the same system as your
mail server, for 1000 users your cost would be $1.30 per mailbox per
year, or a little over 10� per mailbox per month.
For big mail servers (like Yahoo), the $1250 per nameserver fee isn't
all that much and is a fixed cost (they don't need to add nameservers as
they add mailboxes), and the mailboxes fee is $50 per 1000 users, or 5�
per user per year.
For our 30,000 users and 2 nameservers, the annual fee is $4000, or just
over 13� per user. For someone with 250,000 users and 5 nameservers
(just to pick some numbers), the per user fee would be down to 7.5� per
user.
I'm not trying to justify MAPS price for every site out there. I was
merely pointing out that if the "big guys" (some of which appear to have
been just taking a free ride) had helped MAPS out before, we might not
have reached this point.
Yo Chris!
Once upon a time, Gary E. Miller <gem@rellim.com> said:
RBL+ already _includes_ DUL and RSS - that is how it differs from plain
RBL. So, you only need the RBL+ (you've just about doubled your cost
for no reason).
OK, I got it. I made that mistake!
Also, I was talking about zone transfer mode.
Those are the prices I used.
For big mail servers (like Yahoo), the $1250 per nameserver fee isn't
all that much and is a fixed cost (they don't need to add nameservers as
they add mailboxes), and the mailboxes fee is $50 per 1000 users, or 5�
per user per year.
Check the mail-abuse web site again. The "standard price" is
$750/500users/year. So it is still $1.50/user per year.
RGDS
GARY
Yo Chis!
Ooops, never mind. I was in the wrong column. You are correct that
for transfer customers it is 5 cents per user per year after the 1st
1000 users. Since I have about 1,000 users my cost is still $1,25/user
per year. Still out of my budget.
RGDS
GARY
Mitch Halmu wrote:
"There will be a day when folks will need to pay to transit email."
(Paul Vixie, 1998)That day has come.
The inclusion of maps.vix.com references in the sendmail code has lead
to predictable consequences. Let's hope this will serve as a warning to
all sysadmins who can infere what's wrong with enterprises like MAPS
from this incident.
Put away the tinfoil hat, Mitch.
Just as soon as they drop the bag, Steve.
--Mitch
NetSide
> Which is to show you what can happen to those that entrust control of
> their communications to a third party. The commercialization of the lil'
> MAPS charity proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it was just another
> clever ploy for them to make a living at it.That's right! I think it's just evil that they might want to cover their
costs and maybe be able to eat, drink, and pay their rent. All the
necessities of life should be provided by the state after all!
Until recently, MAPS was financed by Metromedia Fiber Network /Abovenet,
in "mi casa su casa" fashion, aka run by their employees. Unfortunately
for them, MFNX dropped to penny stock status (literally), and the fat
seems to have been trimmed.
Whatever. If you find the service valuable, then you'll pay for it, if
you don't, then don't use it and go away.
Valuable? Hehe. FYI, NetSide is on the MAPS RSS blackhole list:
A detailed account of our "crimes"...
--Mitch
NetSide
Which is to show you what can happen to those that entrust control of
their communications to a third party. The commercialization of the lil'
MAPS charity proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it was just another
clever ploy for them to make a living at it. The brilliant idea: have
everybody pay a small toll on email. Blackhole thy opponents. Quote:
Mitch, we are all aware of your stake in this battle. Personally, I have
been using MAPS on my personal mail server simply because I get maybe one
spam per week at that address compared to hundreds per day at my old work
email address. Both addresses are in whois contacts, both have posted to
public lists and to newsgroups, etc. I see value in that service. You
don't see value because people like me have decided that they trust
MAPS procedures for putting mail servers on the list and removing them,
and those policies have impacted you. Yes, I am fully aware that some
people who I might want to receive email from will be bounced, but I
think that is a reasonable price for the spam reduction. BTW, I check the
logs periodically and that is about 1 legitimate message per month.
The only problem I have is I didn't see any notification of this change
anywhere until I noticed I wasn't getting any email this morning. Then
their web server was so overloaded it took a while to find out about the
change. As it happens, my personal mail server will still be free and
my current employer will be very cheap, so there is no reason not to
continue.
I understand they have a problem notifying everyone since they don't
know contact information for the people using the service, but I would
have expected to see an announcement here, for example.
"There will be a day when folks will need to pay to transit email."
(Paul Vixie, 1998)That day has come.
??? There are no costs related to MAPS for sending email. The only people
that pay anything to MAPS are those who find value in the service for
filtering incoming email. If you don't want that service, don't pay for it.
The inclusion of maps.vix.com references in the sendmail code has lead
to predictable consequences. Let's hope this will serve as a warning to
all sysadmins who can infere what's wrong with enterprises like MAPS
from this incident.
How do you think those references got there? Could it be that enough
people requested it and asked how to do it with older versions of
sendmail that it was made an optional part of the standard configuration?
John A. Tamplin jat@jaet.org
770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave
770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
What about those of us using BGP for residential and recreational
purposes, who favor an eBGP multihop-based blackhole to something
DNS-based?
I realize BGP state is expensive, and the good people at MAPS are well
worthy of compensation for the excellent service they offer, but it's
kinda difficult to justify paying $1k/yr to rid our personal boxen of
spam and spam-related abuse.
-adam
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"There will be a day when folks will need to pay to transit email."
(Paul Vixie, 1998)That day has come.
The inclusion of maps.vix.com references in the sendmail code has lead
The above is exactly the reason (well not the only reason), that we now use
Qmail instead of sendmail.
I never liked the idea of someone else, with an agenda that I'm sure
doesn't coinside with mine, telling me who I should talk to or not. When
the source code defaulted to using these "services" that's when I bailed on
sendmail.
Matt
__________________________ http://www.invision.net/ _______________________
Matthew E. Martini, PE InVision.com, Inc. (631) 543-1000 x104
Chief Technology Officer matt@invision.net (631) 864-8896 Fax
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