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> How does Demon get away with that sort of waste?

I is *not* a waste. It is a very good use of IP address space. We
have usage density of about 99% of our allocated blocks. Meanwhile
the customers love it bcause they can do things that not having an

well you must see the diffrence between what makes sense (from a technical
point of view) and what is possible.
Yes we have a huge number of private dial-up-customers who want a
static ip. Some ISPs want this as well to have an easier way
of accounting ... well I think A LOT of users dont really need a static
ip. Have IP Addresses is no status symbole.
The really problem is, that some isps from their history have large
assignment windows and have a lot of class B networks.
Charge your customer for a static ip. The diffrence can be very litte ->
you will see a LOT of people dont really need this, and anyone
really having the need of a static ip will pay you 10-20% more.

"" for my dial-up. Security based on IP address.

security can be archieved in other ways, not quite as comfortable as with
a static ip address, but this is not a good argument

We have many many busines users who use the fact that they know
what IP address a dial-up user will have to authenticate access to
their corporate networks.

right, but not for 19$ flat surfin accounts :slight_smile:

of the service. They want an infinite number of mailboxes, they
like to be able to reconnect a dialup that drops half way through
a telnet of ftp session and continue from where they left off, they
like the "instant" intranet they get. Adn so on.

right - i cant tell anything about you and your service because we never
touched us :slight_smile: but i have heard of cases in germany that a customer joined that
isp who gave him that address space without asking why. This means
those ISPs with a low AW or who take care of the Rules what to assign
will loose probably a customer to another ips which doesnt take care
of the rules. This cant be right! This is a general problem

I reiterate. It is not a waste. What is a waste is people like
Interop having an entire class A, like PSInet having a class A,
like MIT ... fill in the blanks. They just got their first, but I
cannot see anyone rushing to return them.

i have read that an assignment is only valid if the conditions of
the assignment didnt change. In times of RFC1597 addresses it is really
hard to believe why one company has a block of 32 (!) Class B Networks,
which are not - and will be never - connected to the internet because
they are used in their intranet.
I dont have too much time to grab in the ripe database but with a typo i
found that dtag has -
Today they WONT get this block again, so it would be fair to check, if
such an assigment is still ok. I think there are a LOT of assigments
which are not valid. After the fall of the german border a lot of
small univercities got a class B Block, especially from 141.X.X.X
Some of this networks are used with 1000-2000 Hosts. Is it right to
waste such a lot of space....

I think i would be time to make some checks :slight_smile: but we are going to see
the light with ipv6 so perhaps no one has an interest to gain back
address space..

I dont want to point my finger to anyone, but it cant be right that
new isps have to send all assigments for approval to ripe while
other isps get a /16 at startup due to good connections or
assign huge space due to their high AW from the past.

Those ips who have large blocks or AW have an advantage which is realy
$$$$ worth. THIS is the really problem not that small number of address
space which is still available. I know it is hard to find a "good" way
since all registries must trust the ISPS in a certain way. They cant
check everything, but with a few shell scripts it would be possible
to find out who has huge address space (in the Class B range) which is
not used/announced. And if ripe/internet etc would ask those, who have
a class B network for their actual network plan to justify the
assignment, i think a lot of address space would be given back.

A small company gave up and some people said, the most worth of this
company is their class B Network... :frowning:

I'm still waiting for they day, that not only domains but class B
networks will be offered for $$ :slight_smile: i this about one year ago we
had this discussion in this list. (Someone offered a class B net for $$)

just my 0,02


Winfried Haug | SEICOM.DE & SCHWABEN.DE | Tel. 07121 9770- 0
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