SoCal FIOS outage(?) / static IP readdressing

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21

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 04:51:26PM -0800, Paul B. Henson wrote:

I'd call my business FIOS "prosumer" ;). Honestly, I'm not sure why
you'd get business FIOS over residential FIOS if you don't need static
IP addresses, at least if you're at an address where both are available.

I can't speak to Verizon, but I can speak to Comcast.

At a past address I had Comcast Business (cable modem) service at
a residential address, and then later downgraded it to Comcast
Residential service.

The similarities:
  - Both used the exact same cable coming into the house.
  - Both offered the same speeds.
  - Both offered static IP's for an additional fee.
  - Both clearly used the same routers, backbone, peering, etc.

The differences I could see:
  - Cable Modem
    - Residential: could rent a consumer grade or BYO (I did, a good one)
    - Business: Comcast supplied and required their better-than-average,
                modem. It could be in bridge mode though.
  - Support
    - Residential: 0-30 minutes on hold, the one dispatch when I needed
                   a truck roll took ~24 hours.
    - Business: 0-2 minutes on hold, I had two dispatches one where the
                truck arrived within 30 minutes, the other in about 2
                hours.
  - Cost (At the time)
    - Residential: $75/month.
    - Business Class: $90/month.
  - Data Caps:
    - Residential: 250GB/month.
    - Business: None (with two paragraphs of disclaimer)

Differences I could not see/verify:
  - Cable Modem Channel Selection
    - I'm told in some cases business class cable modems get different
      DOCSYS channels which have less congestion than typical
      residential channels. This of course varies greatly market to
      market, and is also dependent on the number of both resi and
      business subs on the segment.
  - Packet prioritization.
    - I'm told that business class packets are given somewhat higher
      priority (QoS) in the network. I could find no way to verify
      this, and generally had no packet loss issues inside the Comcast
      network with either service.

Ultimately the reason to buy business class at a residential address
(and I think the Prosumer description is correct) is generally faster
repair times. On congested segments it may also result in slightly
lesser packet loss. Maybe, depending on how caps are done, it could be
worth while if you move a lot of data.

Obviously if these differences are worth the delta in price depends on
your situation and the exact delta in your location. At the time I had
this I was working from home, so the extra $15/month insurance that I
could do my job was money well spent.

22

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 04:51:26PM -0800, Paul B. Henson wrote:

I'd call my business FIOS "prosumer" ;). Honestly, I'm not sure why
you'd get business FIOS over residential FIOS if you don't need static
IP addresses, at least if you're at an address where both are available.

I can't speak to Verizon, but I can speak to Comcast.

At a past address I had Comcast Business (cable modem) service at
a residential address, and then later downgraded it to Comcast
Residential service.

The similarities:
- Both used the exact same cable coming into the house.
- Both offered the same speeds.
- Both offered static IP's for an additional fee.

  — Not available in San Jose on residential service. If you want static, must go business here.

- Both clearly used the same routers, backbone, peering, etc.

The differences I could see:
- Cable Modem
   - Residential: could rent a consumer grade or BYO (I did, a good one)
   - Business: Comcast supplied and required their better-than-average,
               modem. It could be in bridge mode though.

  - San Jose, I was able to use BYO. Had to escalate several levels and pull several teeth to get
    bridge mode on the Comcast unit while I had it.

- Support
   - Residential: 0-30 minutes on hold, the one dispatch when I needed
                  a truck roll took ~24 hours.
   - Business: 0-2 minutes on hold, I had two dispatches one where the
               truck arrived within 30 minutes, the other in about 2
               hours.
- Cost (At the time)
   - Residential: $75/month.
   - Business Class: $90/month.

  - San Jose, Residential and business both about $90/month. Difference is that Residential includes Television
    in that price.

- Data Caps:
   - Residential: 250GB/month.

  - San Jose, I just received a notice indicating that they were just now instituting a 500GB/month limit on my service.
    Prior to that, no documented cap. I don’t think I’ve tried to move more than 1/2 a terabyte in any month, so I
    don’t know if there was an undocumented cap or not.

   - Business: None (with two paragraphs of disclaimer)

One other visible difference:
  - Residential: One mac address only, 15 minutes to reset DHCP server if changing MAC address
  - Business: Multiple mac addresses supported

Differences I could not see/verify:
- Cable Modem Channel Selection
   - I'm told in some cases business class cable modems get different
     DOCSYS channels which have less congestion than typical
     residential channels. This of course varies greatly market to
     market, and is also dependent on the number of both resi and
     business subs on the segment.
- Packet prioritization.
   - I'm told that business class packets are given somewhat higher
     priority (QoS) in the network. I could find no way to verify
     this, and generally had no packet loss issues inside the Comcast
     network with either service.

Ultimately the reason to buy business class at a residential address
(and I think the Prosumer description is correct) is generally faster
repair times. On congested segments it may also result in slightly
lesser packet loss. Maybe, depending on how caps are done, it could be
worth while if you move a lot of data.

In my case, I started residential and it was abysmal. There were so many
problems and multiple truck rolls did not resolve anything. Finally, I
resorted to business class in desperation (My choices here for any
bandwidth >1.5Mbps/384k are Comcast, Comcast, or Comcast). Within a few
days of installation, 3-4 truck-rolls later, I had about 3 months of free
service in credits and working service that was stable for years.

Later I downgraded back to residential and it seems that having gotten
the neighborhood equipment up to business class standards has resolved
the issues and things continue to be reliable.

Obviously if these differences are worth the delta in price depends on
your situation and the exact delta in your location. At the time I had
this I was working from home, so the extra $15/month insurance that I
could do my job was money well spent.

The delta may be more variable than you describe as well. If you’re only
looking at internet, then it’s about $15 or maybe even $0 in some cases
(It was actually cheaper at one point to buy a la carte business class
internet than residential here). However, if you add TV, then the double-play
residential price is almost always such that your internet service price
a la carte is roughly equal to double-play price for both on residential.
They don’t offer double-play business pricing in my area and, in fact,
refused to sell me business class TV service in a residential unit. When
I was running business class internet, I was paying about $60 for TV and
$90 for business class internet, so it was $150 vs. $90. For me, it was
worth even that much larger differential at the time because at least the
service worked and at least I could get them to fix things when it didn’t.

To me, that was the single largest differentiator for business vs. residential
service. OTOH, this was in the years when Comcast was consistently winning
the most hated company in America award, so I believe there have been
some significant improvements in their residential service since then.
(Though I still wouldn’t call myself a “happy” customer so much as one
that is quite a bit less angry.)

I’d still like to get a real internet provider here, or better yet, more than
one that offered real bandwidth over fiber.

Owen

23

> At a past address I had Comcast Business (cable modem) service at
> a residential address, and then later downgraded it to Comcast
> Residential service.
> [...]
> The differences I could see:
> - Cable Modem
> - Residential: could rent a consumer grade or BYO (I did, a good one)
> - Business: Comcast supplied and required their better-than-average,
> modem. It could be in bridge mode though.
  - San Jose, I was able to use BYO. Had to escalate several levels and pull several teeth to get
    bridge mode on the Comcast unit while I had it.

I'm using BYO on business class in Atlanta. I thing that a static IP
requires that you use their modem. I'm happy with DHCP - my assigned IP
hasn't changed in years. And as you say, I can plug in multiple boxes and
each get's its own public IPv4 address.

> Ultimately the reason to buy business class at a residential address
> (and I think the Prosumer description is correct) is generally faster
> repair times.

That's why I have it. Though if you BYOM, you'll likely have trouble
getting service as they'll blame it on your 'unspoorted' device (even
thought it's listed on supported devices page). I had to rent one of their
modems for about 3 months once while they struggled to find something in the
neighborhood with a flaky power supply that caused intermittent outages.

Robert

24

It is interesting to see the differences. For instance to put my
unit in bridge mode I just logged into it, said bridge mode, and
rebooted it. That method was actually documented in their business
class FAQ.

I'm sure there are great differences in plant and capabilities.
There's a lot of M&A history and a lot of historical reasons, good
and bad.

In a message written on Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 11:55:56AM -0800, Owen DeLong wrote:

They don’t offer double-play business pricing in my area and, in fact,
refused to sell me business class TV service in a residential unit. When

On some of the issues like this I wonder if the reason is regulatory.
In the two areas I've checked there is double play business pricing.
In one of them they offered business class TV at residential, or
at least the rep tried to sell it to me. Its the sort of thing
that just feels like a regulator issue to me.

25

I don't know about the rest of the list, but I find these numbers
fascinating. There's probably not that many people who are allowed
to share them, but if more could I think that would be educational
for a lot of folks.

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 08:37:19AM -0500, Jared Mauch wrote:

I’ve been thinking of the same in my underserved area. Labor is $5/foot here and despite friends and colleagues telling me to move, it seems I have a sub-60 month ROI (and sub-year for some areas I’ve modeled with modest uptake rates of 15-20% where the other options are fixed wireless, Cellular data or dial).

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 01:50:48PM +0000, Luke Guillory wrote:

Our model is 15k a mile all in, this is for aerial not underground for our HFC/Coax builds. A partner of ours models their underground fiber builds at 30k a mile.

In a message written on Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 09:08:51AM -0500, Shawn L wrote:

26

Numbers for building fiber optic systems are out there if you do the
research. Joining the FTTH Council is a good start. One thing to recognise
is that the numbers vary widely based on what is being built and where it
is being built. There are large regional, technology, and product
variations. Verizon has economies of scale few can match.

Having said that, some of the numbers listed are unrecognizably low.

27

Labor can vary quite widely based on project, distance and environment. What is $5/foot in a rural location can be $150 or more in an urban environment. It’s not uncommon to see pricing around $12/foot before engineering and other permitting work.

If you’re in an environment that has favorable permitting process and can work with an existing insured contractor, $5/foot is attainable. You are still up against 600-800 feet per day in favorable soil, which can easily turn to 200 should there be a rock or complex utility work involved.

I’ll say depending on your project, you can start with the big-dreamer communities out there, or you go the other way and talk to folks that are doing it on the ground in your local area. I’ve talked to people about pole attach as well as underground. You can see costs as low as 10k per mile on poles, but that’s the really low end.

All numbers I’ve mentioned are for Michigan in the communities around my home as well as outlying areas. If you’re around my area and want to talk costs and the projects, a private e-mail is welcome.

If you’re in Maine, that granite rock is really tough, the hemlocks rot and fall more often than the birch, etc. Those risks make the situation tougher, and the population north of Bangor/Orono really thins out, but at least the speed limit is higher on 95 now. :slight_smile:

- Jared

28

In a message written on Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 10:21:53AM -0500, Fletcher Kittredge wrote:

Numbers for building fiber optic systems are out there if you do the
research. Joining the FTTH Council is a good start. One thing to recognise
is that the numbers vary widely based on what is being built and where it
is being built. There are large regional, technology, and product
variations. Verizon has economies of scale few can match.

That's actually why I find this interesting. It's not so much the
raw price, as I'm sure there is plenty written on that in various
forums and anyone serious about putting fiber in the ground knows
what they are. Rather it's the external factors that affect price.
I'm sure everyone on this list could guess labor prices and permitting
vary, but the anicdotal information about permitting, soil, working
with other utilities, and so on that drives much of the cost is
fascinating.

Perhaps I could have phrased better, I don't care so much that it's
$15/foot in Frostbite Falls, but I am very interested in why it is
$15/foot in Frostbite Falls.