RE: Lawsuit threat against RBL users

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1

The problem with this is that someone, sooner or later, is going to
take a run at people trying to set up what amounts to a set of contractual
requirements that exceed legal requirements - and then enforce them network
wide.

The collusive aspect of this is downright scary, especially when coupled
with threats of depeering, active denial of service attacks, etc.

*shrug*

If I am an ISP, I'm free to have whatever AUP I want. IF clients don't like
the AUP, they are free to shop elsewhere. I don't have the ability to force
other ISPs to use my AUP or even a close facsimile...nor is there is a
method to enforce your 1984 vision anyway. The net is a loose connection of
public and private links. If I own a private link and I decide that I'm
going to route you into /dev/null...that's what I'll do. There isn't a
thing you can do about it.

[snip]

There are a lot of "questionable" things that this industry does, but IMHO
this one is near or at the top of the list of things I'd talk to my counsel
about....

Knock yourself out. Be sure to let us know what your legal eagle has to say
on the matter.

Chris

2

From: Karl Denninger [mailto:karl@Denninger.Net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 10:26 AM
To: Chris Mauritz; 'Sheryl Chapin'; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Lawsuit threat against RBL users

>The problem with this is that someone, sooner or later, is going to
>take a run at people trying to set up what amounts to a set of contractual
>requirements that exceed legal requirements - and then enforce them network
>wide.
>
>The collusive aspect of this is downright scary, especially when coupled
>with threats of depeering, active denial of service attacks, etc.

*shrug*

If I am an ISP, I'm free to have whatever AUP I want. IF clients don't like
the AUP, they are free to shop elsewhere. I don't have the ability to force
other ISPs to use my AUP or even a close facsimile...nor is there is a
method to enforce your 1984 vision anyway. The net is a loose connection of
public and private links. If I own a private link and I decide that I'm
going to route you into /dev/null...that's what I'll do. There isn't a
thing you can do about it.

You're right, as far as that goes.

However, when an industry adopts what amount to consistent policies, and
those policies reach beyond your own equipment and services (ie: "if you
spam from *anywhere*, even if you don't mention our service, even if you
don't drop-box onto our service, we will shut down your connection to us")
then IMHO you're asking for it.

Again, you can do anything you want as an individual company. In this
business you can even try to do nearly anythnig you want as a group, since
holding together a "cartel" is darn difficult. But if you actually achieve
consensus like this, and DO hold it together, there can be trouble.

[snip]

>There are a lot of "questionable" things that this industry does, but IMHO
>this one is near or at the top of the list of things I'd talk to my counsel
>about....

Knock yourself out. Be sure to let us know what your legal eagle has to say
on the matter.

Chris

Why would I take this to my "legal eagle" Chris? I have no stake in this
debate, but I believe that it is a good idea to point out that its plain
dangerous to play in these waters, and that those of you who want to should
be the ones talking to THEIR legal eagles.

3

Chris Mauritz writes:

If I am an ISP, I'm free to have whatever AUP I want. IF clients
don't like the AUP, they are free to shop elsewhere. I don't have
the ability to force other ISPs to use my AUP or even a close
facsimile...nor is there is a method to enforce your 1984 vision
anyway. The net is a loose connection of public and private
links. If I own a private link and I decide that I'm going to
route you into /dev/null...that's what I'll do. There isn't a
thing you can do about it.

I can lobby government to pass
laws protecting my Rights from
being abused by commercial
interests. Those rights can
be included in constitutions
and Bills of Rights thereafter
extending protections I expect
everywhere else to new media
and emmerging technologies.

Don't Tread on Me... Great
motto from the great American
Revolution. You remember...
the one that secured the rights
and freedoms of millions of
people and has served as an
example to the world, eh?

Bob Allisat

Free Community Network _ bob@fcn.net . http://fcn.net
http://fcn.net/allisat _ http://fcn.net/draft

4

God, I really need to stop replying to Bobby, but...

I find it amusing that a Canadian chooses to preach to us based on the
laws that protect US citizens instead of the laws that protect him.

Allisat lives in Toronto, last time I checked.

(I'll shut up now, since I have been guilty of lowering the S:N ratio of
this list several times recently...)

5

Has anyone ever been removed from NANOG? Anyone want to take vote to start? All of this guy's messages posted to NANOG have been of a political and non-operational nature whic is way off topic based on my understanding of the list's charter.

In the meantime I have added him to my personal filters.

6

Oh, Gawd... Who let the kook back in?

7

Speaking only for myself, so long as the list remains un-moderated, I
belive personal filtering is the way to go. If nothing else, it will encourage
a general increase in procmail clue. 8)

8

How about if I sue you for screwing with my privacy and for sending
me harassing annoying crap that I didn't solicit in the first place.

Talk about internet rights, well pal my right to choose whom I
want to do business with supersedes your right to dictate to me
that I have to do business with you when you force it on me.

Did I make my point

Henry R. Linneweh

9

Well, regardless if you've made .your. point, you certainly made .his. point.

Jamie