pgpFingerPrint:9CE4 227B B9B3 601F B500 D076 43F1 0767 AF00 EDCC
Brian Kernighan jokingly named it the Uniplexed Information and
Computing System (UNICS) as a pun on MULTICS.
From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On
Behalf Of Matthew Sullivan
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: "Default" Internet Service
Smith, Donald wrote:
>First are the consumers willing to pay for a "safer" internet
Why should they have to?
Because it costs money to mitigate the attacks coming from their
It takes people and people want to be paid. Given a larger security
abuse team we could do more.
>I believe if they were there would be a safer service
available. I have
>seen several "secure" isp's fail in the last few years. If
you have any
>data that shows that there is a market for a more secure
>dialup/DSL/isdn... please share it.
No, but it won't belong before you will find half a dozen
reasons why as
an ISP you will want to do it - but then it may be too late.
>2nd blaming infected machines on the internet is similar to blaming
>your postal carrier for bringing you junk mail and bills.
> About 1/2 of all of
>the large "infection" events on the internet are the result
>running unpatched unsecured applications on their machines.
>half of the infections I see are due to an end user opening an email
>and running an attachment.
> Even with a secure OS this simple method of infection will
However you are ignoring the fact that once the machine is
machine can be used by hundreds of people (skript kiddies) to damage
other parts of the internet, further they can (and are) being used by
organised crime to extort money out of large financial
companies, and that's not to mention DDoS's on the smaller people who
are just in the way.
>How and when did it become the responsibility of the ISP to
>end users machines?
It hasn't, however the data coming from an ISPs network has
the responsibility of the ISP.... and I would suggest if you
the endusers getting infected, then you should look at stopping those
machines from abusing other machines on the internet.... If you will
not do that you should not be peered.
AFAIK all major ISP's are processing 1000's of infected host. This
includes notification of the end user,
assistence in cleaning and identifing the infections and responses to
the people providing the lists of infected hosts.
>Do ISP's get paid to protect end user machines?
No, they get paid for traffic, which is the reason some ISPs
don't care if their customers are DDoSing anothers network.
Most US ISP's end users (DSL/DIAL/ISDN/CABLE) are on a flat rate.
The end user is not charged for the bandwidth.
I have received NO PUSHBACK from sales on any of the projects we have
worked on to mitigate the effects of bots/worms/virii on our network. I
personally don't believe there are ISP's that don't mitigate so they can
get the extra $$$ the worm traffic is generating.
>If you want to blame someone maybe the company that provided the
>insecure os that requires monthly patches to fix portions of
>code they sold. Or you could blame the end users who open unknown
Yup, we've been doing that for years, and they have been
as fast as possible (not always, and not until more recently) however
they are making steps in the right direction, so I feel it's
ISP's started taking some of the responsibility for traffic on their
network. As far as the attachments go, education is the only
way - and
if they cannot be educated they shouldn't be on the Internet.
How will you keep them off?
>I would like a real solution to the problem. Simply blocking
>not successful. So I recommend 2 steps.
>First buy OS's that are more secure out of the box.
That's not going to happen anytime soon, even with Microsoft
follow the 'right' road.
I believe there are OSes that are much more secure out of the box then
>2nd Teach users NOT to click on every thing they see.
...and how are you going to do that? If you give a user a
Education as you stated above.
where they have full internet access they click on
everything, then they
get infected, their machine is controlled by someone else across the
world and is used for DDoS attacks or spam (or..hacking,
or...?) .. what
are you going to do to educate them in the middle....? What
is the ISP
going to do to make sure that the enduser has been educated?
you the ISP going to do to ensure the machine that was
infected has now
You have not convinced me that either of these is currently an ISP
I don't expect you the ISP to solve all these problems, nor
do I expect
you the ISP to stop your users from getting infected....
However you the
ISP are responsible for traffic coming from and going to your
most of us don't care if you want to allow your users to get
however we do care if you allow your customers to attack
it be an attack in the form of spam, DDoS or trojan/virus spreading.
As an ISP I am responsible to ensure my users can send and receive
Want to contribute?
Consider volunteering time at one of the public internet security sites.
Complaining that ISP's are not doing enough is not productive.