re: class B for sale

So that I'm not misunderstood let me say this:

1: I do not neccessarily agree with the sale of IPs, personally, I don't
think its a good idea

2: This is a real world economy now, outdated academic practices which are
currently being enforced are as wrong as the sale of IPs.

3: Wether you, ARIN, or anyone else likes it or not, IPs are for all intents
and purposes a resellable commodity, otherwise ARIN et all can (ala Jim
Flemming) be called on as being a Monopoly.

4: The simple fact of the matter is that the RFCs are not at any time, the
law of the land. They are at best guidelines and good ideas set down for
others to follow, but there is no rule stating that you _must_ follow them.

5: Before you start chasing wild geese selling Class B address space I
suggest you go back and check on all those folks that got space long before
there were any 'restrictions and justifications'. I have no doubt that there
is a veritable feast of IPs sitting unused at MIT, USC, and other such
institutions that would be better used elsewhere instead of sitting in a
corner like a dusty grad student.

6: Finally and most importantly, stop pretending you still live in the world
of happy academia where everyone is willing to follow the rules you set down
just because you're the proffessor and they're the student. This just does
not work anymore, you may scoff at people like Jim Flemming but for each one
you knock down there is another one to learn from his mistakes and take his
place. Do not pretend you can sit idle and call people who don't fall in
line behind you names so that you can sit back in your dusty chair and
pretend nothing is wrong. The internet as a whole is growing at an unthought
of pace and your failure to keep up will not be fixed by being tight assed
and making it harder on those that follow. Eventually someone else will take
the forefront and throw you off your high horse like yesterdays newspaper.
You purport to be leaders of the internet, then its about time you acted
like it and start to solve the problems instead of trying to make the
problems go away by being ignorant of reality.

[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-]
[-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-]
[-] 713-467-7100 [-]

There are no leaders of the Internet. The problems are *YOUR* problems and
it is *YOUR* responsibility to solve them as much as anyone else's. As
always, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting
Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049
http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com

You purport to be leaders of the internet, then its about time you acted
like it and start to solve the problems instead of trying to make the
problems go away by being ignorant of reality.

There are no leaders of the Internet.

Yes, there are no leaders, just rulers (IANA, InterNIC, etc.). It's about
time the rulers started leading, or they will be ignored (seeming divine
right notwithstanding).

The problems are *YOUR* problems and
it is *YOUR* responsibility to solve them as much as anyone else's.

Wow, that sounds a lot like fingerpointing. It's not my problem, it's
yours. My network isn't losing packets, the NAPs are. My peering
requirements are reasonable, yours aren't. My HOL blocking isn't the
problem, your refusal to daisy chain a second non-working device is the
problem. I'm sure that's not what you meant, Michael, but the wording is
rather ironic given the outcome of packet loss/performance discussions at
NANOG (yuk yuk).

As always, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

The prevailing attitude here seems to be "If it's not my solution, you are
part of the problem."

The tendency of network operators in this arena to jump up and down
screaming "WAH WAH WAH WAH" with their fingers in their ears when problems
are pointed out is rather disturbing. It seems that the "players" want to
present an appearance of cooperation to prevent regulation, yet I see no
effective cooperation. (Yes, CAIDA people, I know you are trying.
However, I don't see the big six at http://compute.merit.edu/ipn.html.)

I'm beginning to think a little regulation will go a long way in correcting
this attitude. Why shouldn't network metrics be standardized, published,
and audited by an independent agency? Car manufacturers have to publish
results of their mandatory saftey tests. I'm sure it is embarrasing as
hell when GM makes an alternator that shreds itself, or a window that
breaks too easily. But, the public interest is served. Does this analogy
hold for the Internet? Well, when the network crashes (or provider A
blackholes provider B, or provider C dumps an OC3 of traffic onto a DS3) it
doesn't kill me, but it sure as hell costs me money... which is nearly as
bad.

Then again, if running a network was easy, it would be about as exciting as
running the cash register at your local Taco Bell.

Jim Browne jbrowne@jbrowne.com
   "Also shocking is just how bad Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, and Carrie
    Fisher are in their first major roles." - CNN Film Critic Paul Tatara

You know, that last line is so overused its sad to see someone I would like
to think is intelligent use it. I as a person am not capable of changing the
way things work at ARIN or across the internet as a whole, but yet I am not
the problem either. I'm at best a bystander watching you people play your
silly games and pointing out what I think is right or wrong.

[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-]
[-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-]
[-] 713-467-7100 [-]

>The problems are *YOUR* problems and
>it is *YOUR* responsibility to solve them as much as anyone else's.

Wow, that sounds a lot like fingerpointing. It's not my problem, it's
yours. My network isn't losing packets, the NAPs are. My peering
requirements are reasonable, yours aren't. My HOL blocking isn't the
problem, your refusal to daisy chain a second non-working device is the
problem. I'm sure that's not what you meant, Michael,

No, it's not what I meant. I should have said the problems are *OUR*
problems as individuals and as a group. And it is *OUR* responsibility to
solve them rather than waiting for the gods to speak.

Aide-toi, Dieu t'aidera.

The prevailing attitude here seems to be "If it's not my solution, you are
part of the problem."

I disagree. If you judge people by their actions rather than by their
words there are a LOT of people silently working to make things better and
not interested in loudly proclaiming how great they are. They deserve
some thanks and the rest of us should roll up our sleeves and pitch in.
This network is still a baby. Everyone here on this list could spend the
rest of their adult life building and deploying the network and it still
wouldn't be finished.

effective cooperation. (Yes, CAIDA people, I know you are trying.
However, I don't see the big six at http://compute.merit.edu/ipn.html.)

It's still a significantly long list. And sooner or later some network
engineer is going to figure out how to explain this to their marketing
people and the big six will start to lose contracts because they are not
collaborating.

I'm beginning to think a little regulation will go a long way in correcting
this attitude.

One thing that would help is some legislation that draws a clear line
between what is and what is not antitrust behavior in the Internet
industry. The United States has such severe penalties for antitrust
behavior that it is understandable that companies large enough to be
considered dominant within the industry would shy away from participating
in things like IPN.

Why shouldn't network metrics be standardized, published,
and audited by an independent agency?

They should, but...

Car manufacturers have to publish
results of their mandatory saftey tests.

The Internet industry has now reached the same level that the car industry
reached just after Henry Ford introduced the Model T. When Internet
engineering is as well understood as automotive engineering is today
then the standards you are looking for will come to be. It's probably no
coincidence that ANX is the major group pushing for this kind of thing.

But the tools are there for any network provider who really wants to work
on quality. ISO 9000, TQM, etc...

Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting
Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049
http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com