You could transfer the resources to RIPE… 
You could transfer the resources to RIPE...
been there. done that. 2016.
"A Happy Story of Inter-RIR Transfer of Legacy Blocks from ARIN to RIPE"
randy
If ARIN's fee structure is such that it is financially advantageous for any class of network operators to turn off IPv6, they're doing it wrong IMHO.
Hi Jay,
Nearly a decade ago I ran for the ARIN Board of Trustees on the
platform that IPv6 fees should be abolished until IPv4 use began to
wane. My basis for that platform was that ARIN's fee structure, in and
of itself, makes it financially advantageous for some network
operators to turn off or fail to implement IPv6. As you say: they're
doing it wrong.
Alas I was not elected.
Regards,
Bill Herrin
Hello Randy ,
You could transfer the resources to RIPE...
been there. done that. 2016.
"A Happy Story of Inter-RIR Transfer of Legacy Blocks from ARIN to RIPE"
In your slides above you mentioned '... just pay ...' , Most of the RIR's webpages (at least to me) are a warren of forward and backward references .
Could you or any kind soul post a url that diffinatively defines the fee structure for services provided for Ripe members ?
randy
Tia , JimL
In your slides above you mentioned '... just pay ...' , Most
of the RIR's webpages (at least to me) are a warren of forward and
backward references .
Could you or any kind soul post a url that diffinatively
defines the fee structure for services provided for Ripe members ?
pretty simple, https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/payment
randy
While the details are certainly yours to keep private,
from other statements made, or implied, it sounded
as if consolidating all your resources under a single
RSA was the most financially advantageous to you
*today* (as in saving you money *today*). And all
that while allowing you to continue to be connected
to the entire Internet (which includes IPv6), which
I would presume you wish to be.
Of course, it does go without saying, that no one
can predict future fees, so whether one would
continue to save with a combined RSA, and for
how long, is unknowable. You place your bets
and take your chances (in ten to twenty years
we will know if moving to a consolidated RSA
would have saved you money vs. separate
accounts). That those that feel their admitted
foolishness in the past may influence their
future choices, is a given.
Jay -
The situation is exactly opposite, as ARIN’s fee schedule allows customers to obtain a corresponding-sized IPv6 block without any increase to their annual fee - this actually removes the financial disincentive that would otherwise be present for network operators to deploy IPv6.
Thanks,
/John
John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers
And yet you have people reporting that ARIN's fee schedule offers
dissuasion for their deployments of IPv6. Right here in this email
thread. How can that be?
Don't gaslight us John. Seriously, it's not cool. ARIN fees make IPv6
registration a neutral prospect for only a fraction of its
registrants. You've presented something as broadly true that isn't.
Those of us for whom your claim is false don't appreciate the
insinuation that we've misrepresented ARIN's behavior.
Regards,
Bill Herrin
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I can’t imagine, as a percentage, a significant amount of voting ARIN members give a crap about what happens with legacy resources.
If I had legacy resources I might, but I don't so it's an issue that I bounce between fully ignore or don't see why I should care.
I can't imagine, as a percentage, a significant amount of voting ARIN
members give a crap about what happens with legacy resources.
there are more legacy non-members than total members. wonder why?
randy
The real issue with Mike's statement is that there are more non-legacy
ARIN registrants under contract than there are ARIN members, all of
whom must pay ARIN more for IPv6 and most of whom must deploy IPv6 if
we're ever to be rid of IPv4. ARIN is attempting to partially resolve
that with their upcoming fee schedule (with prior non-members paying
more of course) but it still leaves a lot of folks out in the cold
including some (like Owen and myself) who pay ARIN for services but
can't and won't be able to have IPv6 addresses without paying ARIN
more. I don't precisely view this as unfair but I do think it harms
the community by creating an unnecessary drag on IPv6 deployment.
Is ARIN fee fairness valuable enough to you that you're willing to
extend the time you have to buy IPv4 addresses at market price? It
shouldn't be! And if it isn't, you ought to let ARIN know because they
seem pretty confident fee equity between IPv4 and IPv6 *is* that
important, not in the future but right now.
Regards,
Bill Herrin
The situation is such that the current economic incentives would be most advantageous to me to preserve my LRSA and abandon my RSA, which would involve simply turning off IPv6.
While the details are certainly yours to keep private,
from other statements made, or implied, it sounded
as if consolidating all your resources under a single
RSA was the most financially advantageous to you
*today* (as in saving you money *today*). And all
that while allowing you to continue to be connected
to the entire Internet (which includes IPv6), which
I would presume you wish to be.
No, if I consolidated under an RSA today, I would face a substantial fee increase (roughly double my 2021 fees). By abandoning my current RSA, I would achieve a nominal fee decrease. (Roughly half my 2021 fees).
Of course, it does go without saying, that no one
can predict future fees, so whether one would
continue to save with a combined RSA, and for
how long, is unknowable.
I fully expected fee increases. What I didn’t predict was the board first changing from fee per organization to fee per record and now the change eliminating the ability of end users to pay per record instead of on the basis of total holdings.
I further failed to anticipate that the change to fee per resource would cause ARIN to suddenly divide my existing single organization into two separate organizations.
You place your bets
and take your chances (in ten to twenty years
we will know if moving to a consolidated RSA
would have saved you money vs. separate
accounts). That those that feel their admitted
foolishness in the past may influence their
future choices, is a given.
Guaranteed eliminating my RSA is the most cost effective alternative both now and in the future.
The trade off, of course is that means turning off IPv6 in my environment or going to PA for v6. Probably I’d just turn it off rather than go to PA.
Owen
I can’t imagine, as a percentage, a significant amount of voting ARIN
members give a crap about what happens with legacy resources.there are more legacy non-members than total members. wonder why?
Randy -
While that was inevitable at ARIN’s inception and continued for many years, it is not currently the case that there are more legacy customers than paying customers – as ARIN has more than 24000 paying registry customers (as increase of more than 500 from a year prior), and only 15233 non-contracted legacy customers. Even if one doesn’t count the 8000 or so paying customers who just have an ASN number, the contracted IPv4/IPv6 customers exceed the number of non-contracted legacy customers - and the non-contracted legacy customers continue to drop in number by hundreds each year while the contracted customers continue to grow.
Note - the same effect is seen with IPv4 address space in the ARIN registry - as of December 2021, total uncontracted legacy IP resources now represent only 35.65% of total IP inventory and legacy resources in registry steadily declining over time – 638M in Dec 2020 to 596M today (-6.6% year over year drop.) While some of these blocks do transfer to other regions, the vast majority (result of NRPM 8./3 transfer) remain in the ARIN region receiving registry services under standard RSA.
FYI,
/John
John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers
hi john
While that was inevitable at ARIN’s inception and continued for many
years, it is not currently the case that there are more legacy
customers than paying customers
i am easily confused. so just to keep my nouns the same over history,
could you phrase that in terms of resource holders, members and
non-members; where members == signed a *RSA? thanks.
randy
Hi Randy,
Probably not since ARIN "members" are the specific class of ARIN
registrants who have received an "allocation" of IP addresses.
Everybody else, including folks who have received an "assignment" of
IP addresses falls into the "end user" or "legacy" categories and are
not "members."
Regards,
Bill Herrin
And since I wasn't clear: both "members" and "end users" have signed
an RSA with ARIN and pay an annual fee while "legacy" organizations
have not and do not. So, for example, the 8000 ASN-only organizations
that John mentioned are paying, RSA-signatory end-users not members.
They often have "legacy" addresses under a different organization
name, hence the need for the AS number.
Regards,
Bill Herrin
hi john
While that was inevitable at ARIN’s inception and continued for many
years, it is not currently the case that there are more legacy
customers than paying customersi am easily confused. so just to keep my nouns the same over history,
could you phrase that in terms of resource holders, members and
non-members; where members == signed a *RSA? thanks.
Randy -
My apologies for the lack of clarity - the challenge is that having “signed an RSA” has never equated to being an ARIN Member – ARIN historically has only considered ISPs to be members – so even end-user organizations who signed an RSA and received IPv4 and/or IPv6 resources directly from ARIN have not been considered members. (Similarly for customers who signed an RSA and received just an ASN)
The situation for ARIN’s IPv4/IPv6 customers will change in January, when all customers with IPv4 and/or IPv6 number resources will pay on the same fee table for ARIN registry services and will all be ARIN Members and will all have the opportunity to participate in ARIN governance if they wish.
So we’re approximately here at the beginning of December 2021 -
7500 ISPs (i.e. services under an RSA / Members)
8500 End-users (i.e. services under an RSA / Not Members Today)
15250 Legacy non-contracted (receiving services w/o fee or agreement / Not Members)
In a month (January 2022) it will become -
16000 ARIN IPv4/IPv6 customers (i.e. services under an RSA and with membership rights)
15250 Legacy non-contracted (receiving services w/o fee or agreement / Not Members)
FYI,
/John
John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers