Q:Why router with ATM interface comes out earlier than pure SONET interface?

Hi friends,

I find in an article, and it says: in 1995,1996 most nationalwide ISP face the demand
of higher bandwidth than T3, and at that time the only avalible high bandwidth interface
in router in ATM port(say 155M), then this makes many of them choose ATM as their
backbone tech. Later, Giga router with POS(Packet over SONET/SDH) 155M(or higher)
interface comes out, then the situation is changed.

Then my question is: why 155M ATM interface is easier to make than 155M POS interface?
Although the net capacity of 155M ATM is less than 155m POS, their capacity for IP packet
is really close. I think its nearly the same challenge to pump up a 155M ATM pipe as a
155M POS pipe with IP packet for a router.

Thanks for any comments.

Yu Ning.

I find in an article, and it says: in 1995,1996 most nationalwide ISP
face the demand of higher bandwidth than T3, and at that time the only
avalible high bandwidth interface in router in ATM port(say 155M), then
this makes many of them choose ATM as their backbone tech. Later, Giga
router with POS(Packet over SONET/SDH) 155M(or higher) interface comes
out, then the situation is changed.

Then my question is: why 155M ATM interface is easier to make than 155M
POS interface? Although the net capacity of 155M ATM is less than 155m
POS, their capacity for IP packet is really close. I think its nearly the
same challenge to pump up a 155M ATM pipe as a 155M POS pipe with IP
packet for a router.

The ATM interface is actually harder to make than a POS interface because
you have to include the segmentation and reassembly (SAR) functionality in
the hardware. Also, the software gets a lot more complicated.

Why then did ATM appear first? There was a great deal of publicity given
to it. The vision was that it was going to be the 'media' of the future
and the hype ran all out of proportion with reality. It took quite a while
for the hype to give way, and for engineering and economic realities to
truly settle in. And as can be seen from recent announcements, that
process is not yet complete.

One other fallacy here: ATM and POS do not provide the same effective
bandwidth when used as an IP transport. Due to the high encapsulation
overhead and the sizing overhead of fitting packets into cells, ATM has
proven to be about 20% less efficient at carrying packets than SONET.
While this is probably not an issue in a campus or within a building, the
implications for long lines is enormous.

Tony

This issue is precipitously close to a
  religious issue, but hopefully we can
  forego the fall.

  One of the nifty things about ATM is that
  cells are of the same size, so building
  physical interfaces is a bit easier, as
  the timing is deterministic.

  One of the drawbacks of ATM is that to run
  IP/ATM we have to do SAR [Segmentation
  and Reassembly]. Another drawback is
  the overhead of ATM, arguably somewhere
  between 5-30%, but inarguably greater than
  native IP/sonet.

  So, these two variables interact over time
  to paint a climate in which we live. Of
  course there are many more issues at stake,
  which others can invariably describe in
  better detail than I could attempt.

  Notwithstanding these two significant
  technical issues, market maturity and
  interest also impacts this significantly.

  Many people previous to '98 believed
  'convergence' [1] would occur in a network
  composed of ATM. So, the market grew
  to accept anything related to ATM as the
  future, and worthy of time and funding.

  Recently the market seems to be growing
  more towards 'convergence' at the IP
  layer, with the predominant audience of
  applications using native IP, be that over
  VPN or the greater Internet.

  In addition to that, we should consider
  traffic engineering and the motivations
  of a 'large' NSP/ISP to build a scalable
  efficient architecture.

  ATM (and frame) provides native
  source-routing traffic engineering using
  PVCs. Traditionally non-ATM networks
  (remember, limited to DS3 until recently)
  suffered from a lack of this traffic
  engineering.

  Recently, due to good theoretical
  work, and practical demonstrations by
  vendors, MPLS has emerged as a viable
  competitor for ATM in the field of traffic
  engineering.

  I believe these variables contribute
  to the history of ATM as a fore-runner
  [2], and the emergence of Packet over
  Sonet as the leading ubiquitous transport
  platform for the communications network
  of the world.

  It will be quite interesting to see who
  is first-to-production with OC-48.

  My money's on Packet/Sonet.

  -alan

  [1] - convergence - second only
  to the term 'carrier class' in silliness.
  
  [2] - pun unintentional

Thus spake Yu Ning (yuning@mindless.com)
on or about Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:02:33AM +0900:

  This issue is precipitously close to a
  religious issue, but hopefully we can
  forego the fall.

:slight_smile:

  One of the nifty things about ATM is that
  cells are of the same size, so building
  physical interfaces is a bit easier, as
  the timing is deterministic.

.. and ASICs have been in development longer, and which much larger
financial backing (all the PTTs of the world etc).

  One of the drawbacks of ATM is that to run
  IP/ATM we have to do SAR [Segmentation
  and Reassembly]. Another drawback is
  the overhead of ATM, arguably somewhere
  between 5-30%, but inarguably greater than
  native IP/sonet.

What, you seem something wrong with SAR'ing all over the place? *tongue
firmly planted in cheek*

  Notwithstanding these two significant
  technical issues, market maturity and
  interest also impacts this significantly.

Look at it this way.. how many service providers are there... how many
enterprise customers are there... well, which technology used in which
market will get the most beating up and innovation? Yes, there are a lot of
things in enterprise that do _not_ work in service provider applications.
However, the differences that I have seen in terms of demands from service
providers are usually centered around greater flexibility, higher
scalability and more distributed control (much like very large enterprise
customers). And then there are the few unique needs of service providers
which rarely ever show up in enterprise -- like the rather unique buzzing
over L2TP etc.

  Recently the market seems to be growing
  more towards 'convergence' at the IP
  layer, with the predominant audience of
  applications using native IP, be that over
  VPN or the greater Internet.

Well, that, and then you see all the applications in the corporate world,
all of them built on IP. Not on ATM. What do you think is going to drive
innovations and requirements on the service provider side? Service
providers aren't just here because somebody thought it was cool to have
service providers.

And if a service provider uses fundamentally different technologies and
approaches to solving the problem of the customers in an attempt to generate
revenue, the service provider better be running similiar technology (like
the customer). Otherwise it'll hardly be efficient.

If someone has a different opinion, I hereby invite you to make a
counterpoint and prove me wrong.

  In addition to that, we should consider
  traffic engineering and the motivations
  of a 'large' NSP/ISP to build a scalable
  efficient architecture.

.. which is where all the fun n^2 issue which seem to be afflicting all ATM
network come in.

  Recently, due to good theoretical
  work, and practical demonstrations by
  vendors, MPLS has emerged as a viable
  competitor for ATM in the field of traffic
  engineering.

Yep. Even thought the ATM vendors try to tell you that MPLS is playing in
their backyard (Ascend to mention just one of them) and that it justifies
building an ATM core. One of these days someone will get the idea that MPLS
is intended to be connectionless.

The connectionless way of looking at the world makes sense in an IP world.
It doesn't make much sense to folks who have done circuit switching for
their entire lives (or most of it). I just hope that the awakening doesn't
come at too high of a price to the latter.

  I believe these variables contribute
  to the history of ATM as a fore-runner
  [2], and the emergence of Packet over
  Sonet as the leading ubiquitous transport
  platform for the communications network
  of the world.

  It will be quite interesting to see who
  is first-to-production with OC-48.

  My money's on Packet/Sonet.

Albeit I agree, it depends also on how much money you're willing to blow to
sustain a dream/vision/crazy thought.. "first in production" may be a
dubious measure.

We usually assume 25% cell shredder tax on ATM vs. POS. At OC-48, you'll be
blowing an OC-12 in framing. Seems like an awful waste of bandwidth to me.

Cheers,
Chris

Well, that, and then you see all the applications in the corporate world,
all of them built on IP. Not on ATM. What do you think is going to drive
innovations and requirements on the service provider side? Service
providers aren't just here because somebody thought it was cool to have
service providers.

I don't think it is an ip vs atm issue as it is an ip/other protocols
are superior to ip/atm for reasons directly related to cost (i.e.
nic deployment, cell tax etc.).
  

And if a service provider uses fundamentally different technologies and
approaches to solving the problem of the customers in an attempt to generate
revenue, the service provider better be running similiar technology (like
the customer). Otherwise it'll hardly be efficient.

all that matters is $$$ or ($$$)

building an ATM core. One of these days someone will get the idea that MPLS
is intended to be connectionless.

The connectionless way of looking at the world makes sense in an IP world.
It doesn't make much sense to folks who have done circuit switching for
their entire lives (or most of it). I just hope that the awakening doesn't
come at too high of a price to the latter.

Could you please define what you mean by connectionless?
  

We usually assume 25% cell shredder tax on ATM vs. POS. At OC-48, you'll be
blowing an OC-12 in framing. Seems like an awful waste of bandwidth to me.

Only if you are paying for it :).

Lest everyone forget, ATM was developed as part of the ISDN broadband
standard for integrating voice video and data (In that order). at the time
it was the only proposed solution for highspeed integrated voice, video and
data. Remember Voice over IP was not even discussed and neither was video.
It was the most efficient (maybe not the best) solution at the time for
statistically muxing voice, video, and data instead of channelized TDM
which made the overhead a non-issue considering the savings of unused TDM
bandwidth. The telco equipment companies took for ever (what else is new)
to develop product while the data companies (i.e. FORE, Lightstream, etc.)
reacted quicker for its use in the data enterprise arena, but before ATM
could solidify itself in the WAN Cisco came out with POS and the game was
over. Just my 1/2 cent.
Best Regards,

George

"The first man gets the oyster, the second man gets the shell"
                                                  Andrew Carnegie

> And if a service provider uses fundamentally different technologies and
> approaches to solving the problem of the customers in an
attempt to generate
> revenue, the service provider better be running similiar
technology (like
> the customer). Otherwise it'll hardly be efficient.

all that matters is $$$ or ($$$)

That's what I meant.

Could you please define what you mean by connectionless?

IP is a connectionless transport. ATM is connection-oriented.

> We usually assume 25% cell shredder tax on ATM vs. POS. At
OC-48, you'll be
> blowing an OC-12 in framing. Seems like an awful waste of
bandwidth to me.
>
Only if you are paying for it :).

? If I use ATM, I am paying for it.. No? Anyone giving away ATM spigots?