Peering versus Transit

It has appeared to me for some time (and I've mentioned it before) that
peering "restrictions" have gotten completely out of hand. I believe
this is because terminology and agreements for "peering" and "transit"
have become ill defined.

I can see no justification under any circumstances why any provider
would refuse to peer with another at an established exchange point for
exchanging their _own_ customers' traffic!

But note: this should not mean transit to others who are not customers
of the provider, or to other exchange points around the world.

I firmly believe that this is where the current model has gone awry.

Worse, the current technology used at the exchange points could
encourage abuse. What is to stop anyone connected to an exchange from
simply dumping packets anonymously at the link level into the various
inter-exchange providers' routers and getting free transit?

Instead of negotiating with other providers for inter-exchange transit,
I advocate that each attachment to an exchange negotiate with the
exchange _operator_ for transit to other exchanges, and the exchange
negotiate with inter-exchange providers for the aggregate.

Separating the peering from transit provides greater clarity in
agreements, with opportunity for better quality monitoring and control,
while promoting greater redundancy in the Internet mesh, and greater
competition in the inter-exchange transit market.

Typically peers configure their routers so as to keep routes learned via a
peer internal, and not advertised to other peers. Therefore, you _can_
dump all of your traffic to one of your peers, but your traffic will not
come back to you via that same peer, because they are not announcing your
routes to anyone else. Real transit _requires_ that the transit provider
advertise your routes to other providers. Nothing less will work.

It has appeared to me for some time (and I've mentioned it before) that
peering "restrictions" have gotten completely out of hand. I believe
this is because terminology and agreements for "peering" and "transit"
have become ill defined.

Many would argue if it is out of hand, what is wrong with providers no
just giving away peering to anyone at just 1 nap. I am spending millions
to get connected to MAE-West, Palo Alto, CIX, Ameritech, Sprint NAP, and
more. I think that providers should peer with you when you reach every
major point, but they should not be forced to do so before then.

I can see no justification under any circumstances why any provider
would refuse to peer with another at an established exchange point for
exchanging their _own_ customers' traffic!

Ok, say you peer with us at MAE-East, but not at MAE-West. Say then that
you want to get to one of our customers in San Francisco, we would be
stuck moving the data to the east coast and then handing it to you. If you
peered with us at MAE-West we would not need to do this.

If you called us up and said you would be at all major exchange point in a
few months, we may peer with you just a MAE-East until you do finish
your buildout, but I don't think we should be forced to peer.

But note: this should not mean transit to others who are not customers
of the provider, or to other exchange points around the world.

I firmly believe that this is where the current model has gone awry.

What, providers not wanting to toast their backbone? When you are
connected to every major exchange and have a huge DS3 network, it cost
big bucks. We are building a small network and will be spending about
$250K a month on telco. Why should someone be able to just pay MFS $5700 a
month and make everybody transit bandwidth to him at just MAE-East?

Worse, the current technology used at the exchange points could
encourage abuse. What is to stop anyone connected to an exchange from
simply dumping packets anonymously at the link level into the various
inter-exchange providers' routers and getting free transit?

Yes, there are many people who do this. I know of a few who point sprint
traffic to sprints MAE-East router and are not peering with sprint, but I
don't see that as a encouraged abuse. That is steeling, and providers
should not do it. If people want sprint to peer then build a full DS3
network and connect to every major NAP at DS3 ore more and I bet they will
peer.

Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!

Correct, but what some providers do is get a transit connection from X
provider. Now sprint, MCI, the whole world can get to them. They now
connect to a NAP and try to get peering, because they are at one nap they
get a few players, but not all. So their solution is to send say all MCI
traffic to MCI and all Sprint traffic to Sprit. Now if you traceroute out
from that provider it will look like they are peering with Sprint and MCI,
but if you traceroute in it will be through their transit provider.

It is asymmetrical, but say you are hosting a lot of www sites and have
mostly out-going traffic this solution will work and give you 10, or even
100 meg FDDI out, but only the size of your transit pipe in.

The main problem with is is that A) It is not ethical B) the provider
you are doing this to will figure it out someday and see you in court C)
it is not nice. :slight_smile:

Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!

It is asymmetrical, but say you are hosting a lot of www sites and have
mostly out-going traffic this solution will work and give you 10, or even
100 meg FDDI out, but only the size of your transit pipe in.

The main problem with is is that A) It is not ethical B) the provider
you are doing this to will figure it out someday and see you in court C)
it is not nice. :slight_smile:

This is something a few of our routing engineers have been joking a mom&pop
ISP could do.

They get a 10 or 45Mbit connection from big six provider A.

They get a 100Mbit connection at Nap B.

They default all of their traffic at Nap B to Provider A's router at Nap
B.

This way they get [theoretically] up to 145Mbits into provider A's
network and get the traffic back inside of provider A's network.

What are the various opinions on this behavior?

Regards,

-Deepak.

Be prepared to back-pay for services rendered or end up in prison. To say
nothing of the loss of your business.

Maybe I didn't make the point clear enough. This is *not* something our
engineers were joking about doing. This was a discussion of what could be
done, and how as an NSP we could account for it at our routers between
our customers and us.

-Deepak.

The people who do this should be billed for the access and/or do some jail
time.

Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today!

It certainly makes sense to send MCI traffic to somewhere other than
MCI...not.

You mean that if I have data to go to Sprint, typically a Sprint customer
who has requested said data, that I'm not supposed to route it to Sprint
unless *I* have some agreement with Sprint?!?

Doesn't Sprint's customer have an agreement with Sprint? As I see it,
their customer has selected Sprint as a provider because they like Sprint's
network, among other reasons. They want their packets to ride around on
Sprint's network.

I would have a problem with my provider if I found out that they took
someone to court for sending packets destined for me to them...that's
*exactly* what I want done. It makes things more reliable for myself and
my customers. I didn't pick my provider so that packets destined for me
could ride around on SomeOtherNetwork for GodKnowsHowManyHops just because
someone couldn't ante up a ton of DS3's. I want data destined for me to
come via the fastest, most reliable path possible, and in my opinion, that
is by hitting my provider as soon as possible on its way here.

I hope that I've misunderstood the messages here, I really do. I'd rather
look like the fool this message will make me look like than to know
that it's not "ethical" to send data the best way one knows how. It
doesn't sound like an excercise in ethics to me, it sounds more like greed
at the core. If this is an example of what's going on, maybe we DO need
government regulation. Ack.

You mean that if I have data to go to Sprint, typically a Sprint customer
who has requested said data, that I'm not supposed to route it to Sprint
unless *I* have some agreement with Sprint?!?

It scares me to see this question on this list.

randy

Maybe you should be frightened more often.

There is one and only one reason why this question is on this list.
Growth. If the Internet was not growing, this kind of question would not
appear here.

However, anybody who believes that the small network known as the global
Internet still has 3 to 4 orders of magnitude of growth left in it should
welcome such a question on a public list because it indicates several
things:

1) There are people on the list who don't know everything.

2) Those people want to learn how things work.

3) These people are brave enough to come where the experts are
   in order to learn.

Of course it is much easier to flame up and coming ISP's than to educate
them. Many people take great satisfaction in doing this because it not
only gives them great personal satisfaction but it also ensures that the
up and comers will make dumb mistakes due to their lack of education and
cause endless heartburn as their routes flap and they crash your BGP
sessions, etc. Some people love this heartburn since it gives them more
fuel with which to flame people.

Now who has the great strength of character to swallow their pride and
humbly assist these up and coming ISP's to learn the ropes? Who
understands that network engineers must all hang together lest they
hang separately on the gallows of Metcalfe's Infoworld audience?

After all, the purpose of a mailing list is to share information. If you
really want to share emotions such as anger or fear, you would be best
advised to do so on a voice telephone call. Internet phone would be fine
too. :slight_smile:

Michael Dillon - ISP & Internet Consulting
Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-604-546-3049
http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com