OpenTransit (france telecom) depeers cogent

No, you got me wrong. I wasn't suggesting that anyone was doing anything
criminal. I was suggesting that Cogent was now so large that if any of the
folks who were pissed off at Cogent's disruptive pricing actually wanted
to make an impact against them, they would need to get together and take
action collectively.

Teleglobe tried to depeer them, but ended up needing Savvis to transit the
bits to maintain global reachability, which cost them a pretty penny while
costing Cogent nothing. In the end, they promptly re-peered.

I could certainly see anti-Cogent folks making the point that Cogent has
amassed a customer base of people who are fully prepared for poor or
partial connectivity, and who just don't care because of the price point.
In the game of who can stick their fingers in their ears and hum the
longest, I think Cogent will win. At least, if they continue to take on
networks who don't like them one-at-a-time, and continue the policy of
complete unreachability during depeering. :slight_smile:

Ratio problems can be solved without hurting customers. Time and time again people use excuses - and most of them really are just excuses - to depeer people. Feel free, your network, your choice.

However, as a customer of many big networks, we get to choose too. And we think we will stop choosing people who don't play nice with others.

FT can claim "we saw their prefixes through Verio". Cogent can claim it was FT's "unilateral decision". Who cares? End of day, both networks are disconnected from a significant fraction of the Internet.

The point of the INTERnet is INTERconnectivity. Not really that hard, people.

Just for the record, I've dealt with Cogent's peering people on behalf of a few networks over the last two years, and in my experience they've been extremely pleasant to work with.

-Steve

Since I forgot to mention it in my last e-mail, Cogent does indeed have
some exceptionally good folks working for them, particularly their peering
people. However, we all know that in this particular case the issue is not
about personalities, technical competence, ratios, etc.

Anyone who doesn't know that Cogent has severely disrupted the IP transit
industry's economy across the board with its pricing has been hiding under
a rock for the past few years. They've recently slashed their prices to
even more absurdly low new levels, and are actively targetting their
peers' customers, particularly in Europe. Anyone who didn't expect to see
exactly this kind of fallout as a result really hasn't been paying
attention.

What remains to be seen from all of this is who blinks first, if anyone
else jumps in at the same time, and if any of it changes anything in the
marketplace.

They've recently slashed their prices to even more absurdly
low new levels, and are actively targetting their peers'
customers, particularly in Europe. Anyone who didn't expect
to see exactly this kind of fallout as a result really hasn't
been paying attention.

Well considering the market isn't growing as much as it used to the
only way to grow is to take business away from other people. If
OT can't deal with that on the street then they should close up
shop and go sell kites or something. Clearly Cogent are doing
something that gives them a cost advantage otherwise they wouldn't
be able to sustain this, so rather than compete with Cogent, FT
try to fiddle with Cogent's costs. If I was an FT customer and
I'd seen this signal I'd be phoning Cogent now for a quote.

If I was Cogent I'd be getting the champers out, for FT
to take this action they clearly feel threatened!

What remains to be seen from all of this is who blinks first,
if anyone else jumps in at the same time, and if any of it
changes anything in the marketplace.

No, it won't change anything - other than for a short period of
time customers will suffer, wouldn't it be nice if we remembered
about the customers.

NOTE: Off-list, as I'm not sure this is on-topic enough to post.

> They've recently slashed their prices to even more absurdly
> low new levels, and are actively targetting their peers'
> customers, particularly in Europe. Anyone who didn't expect
> to see exactly this kind of fallout as a result really hasn't
> been paying attention.

Well considering the market isn't growing as much as it used to the
only way to grow is to take business away from other people. If
OT can't deal with that on the street then they should close up
shop and go sell kites or something.

This is an OK analysis as far as it goes. However, if Cogent has a business plan (and mind you I have not read theirs) that says "we will go borrow $10 billion, sell services at below cost until we bankrupt our competition, then jack up our prices" then that would not necessarily be OK.

I don't know if Cogent is selling below cost. Amazon certainly built their business by doing so, losing money on every order. They did a nice job wiping out small book stores I expect. Are we better off for that? If Amazon were based in Korea and were selling products below cost into the US market, the US Government would scream "dumping" and insist on trade sanctions.

The point of this is that competition is one thing, unfair competition by selling below cost (for more than a loss-leader or two) is not in the best interests of the economy or the future of any given industry.

[..] Clearly Cogent are doing
something that gives them a cost advantage otherwise they wouldn't
be able to sustain this [..]

Do you seriously view it that way? See the financial
analysis available on the web about Cogent and tell me the
same thing again.

[..] If I was an FT customer and
I'd seen this signal I'd be phoning Cogent now for a quote.

I want my packets to make it to the destination. For some
Euros more I get real transit from real networks. See, all
the world is fine again. He who wants to save even more
money gets what he pays for.

I bet your viewpoint would maybe change if you had nearly
exclusively DSL traffic and hardly B2B- type traffic. I
could be wrong, of course.

Alexander

This is a matter of human nature, I suppose. Everyone is terribly pleasant
when they hear what they want. The true test is what happens when folk hear
the "wrong" answer.

I've depeered and I've been depeered. I've seen folks on the receiving end
of bad peering news handle it with consummate professionalism. I've also
seen folks act like spoiled children, forgetting the fundamental rule of
peering:

Peering is a business relationship. Peering is about meeting the mutual
business needs of two networks. Emotionalism , "hurt feelings", and actions
that violate the bounds of trust and the normal bounds of professionalism
have no place in internetwork peering.

Depeering is always a gamble and, as such, is to be generally avoided as
unnecessary risk. Given that, folks need to resist their urge to put black
hats on networks who decide that certain peering relationships have outlived
their usefulness. The true picture is always more complex than the spaghetti
western.

If enough folks are actually interested, I'd be happy to do a talk at an
upcoming NANOG on depeering (methods, etiquette, likely outcomes, necessary
pre-action analysis). This might be good for a future peering track.

- Dan

> They've recently slashed their prices to even more absurdly
> low new levels, and are actively targetting their peers'
> customers, particularly in Europe. Anyone who didn't expect
> to see exactly this kind of fallout as a result really hasn't
> been paying attention.

Well considering the market isn't growing as much as it used to the
only way to grow is to take business away from other people. If
OT can't deal with that on the street then they should close up
shop and go sell kites or something.

They should certainly do something about it any rate rather, instead of
stick their heads in the sand and hope it all goes away. Depeering Cogent
is doing something.

Clearly Cogent are doing something that gives them a cost advantage
otherwise they wouldn't be able to sustain this, so rather than compete

Yes, its called losing money hand over fist. As long as people keep giving
you more it makes it very easy to keep doing what you are doing.

with Cogent, FT try to fiddle with Cogent's costs. If I was an FT
customer and I'd seen this signal I'd be phoning Cogent now for a
quote.

You're missing the big picture. FT depeering Cogent increases costs for
both sides, in fact probably more so for FT than Cogent. This has nothing
to do with cost, and everything to do with FT believing that giving Cogent
access to its customers for free is enabling Cogent to continue selling
services below market rate, disrupting business for everyone. They may be
right. Certainly if everyone took the same position, Cogent would be
unable to continue to operate as it does now, so there is some truth to
that belief.

Despite what some people may think, peering is not a god given right that
you are in any way entitled to receive. Two networks peer when they feel
that there is mutual benefit, not before and not after. You may not agree
with the other network's decision not to peer with you (and in many cases
they me be wrong, and simply don't understand the benefits that are
there), but it is their decision to make.

If Cogent cared about connectivity to FT's customers, it would man up and
pay for the transit to reach them. However, Cogent cares more about the
long-term benefits of settlement free transit than it does about the short
term benefits of being able to reach FT's customers today, so they choose
not to pay for the transit in the hopes that FT will blink. Not that there
is anything wrong with that, but that is the cold hard reality of the
decision that they have made. It might even be the right decision. If you
don't like it, no one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy
Cogent (or FT) transit.

No, it won't change anything - other than for a short period of
time customers will suffer, wouldn't it be nice if we remembered
about the customers.

If you don't like it, buy from someone else. If you sell transit, now is
an excellent time to pick up disgruntled customers from both sides. Either
side could end the lack of connectivity if they wanted, yet they both
clearly see business reasons not to do so.

[..] If I was an FT customer and
I'd seen this signal I'd be phoning Cogent now for a quote.

I want my packets to make it to the destination. For some
Euros more I get real transit from real networks. See, all
the world is fine again. He who wants to save even more
money gets what he pays for.

I bet your viewpoint would maybe change if you had nearly
exclusively DSL traffic and hardly B2B- type traffic. I
could be wrong, of course.

You are wrong. I've heard the stories & rumors, but empirical evidence > "so-and-so said". We send more than enough bit over Cogent to both business and broadband users to be statistically significant, and the packets get there. "YMMV", but our _experience_ sending packets over AS174 is more than acceptable.

Do you have any real experience sending traffic over / through AS174?

To be clear, I could say the same about FT. Both run perfectly fine networks, and both give very decent pricing. This is not to say we have never had a problem - we've had problems with every network on the 'Net pretty much. But we were happy with both of them - until now.

And if they don't get their collective acts together, I am certain they will both lose a lot of customers.

You're missing the big picture.

No I don't think so :slight_smile:

If Cogent cared about connectivity to FT's customers, it
would man up and pay for the transit to reach them. However,
Cogent cares more about the long-term benefits of settlement
free transit than it does about the short term benefits of
being able to reach FT's customers today, so they choose not
to pay for the transit in the hopes that FT will blink. Not
that there is anything wrong with that, but that is the cold
hard reality of the decision that they have made. It might
even be the right decision. If you don't like it, no one is
putting a gun to your head and making you buy Cogent (or FT) transit.

Surely FT's customers pay for access to Cogents network and vice versa?

Apparently not....

In such a case, FT has done its part by paying Sprint for full transit
service. It is Cogent who is not accepting the route from their transit,
and who intentionally does not carry the global routing table. If I put up
a filter on my transit that says I will not accept routes from you unless
you peer with me, should your customers leave you because I did this?
Doesn't sound very fair to me. I guess it depends how important I am,
doesn't it?

If I may, you sound like someone whom FT has depeered in the past? :slight_smile:

Is Cogent filtering the prefixes they get from Verio? Or is Verio filtering what they send to Cogent? Does it matter?

I think you have a very good point - FT is buying full transit. Cogent is the one without full reachability.

Doesn't mean that FT didn't know this would be a problem when they took the step, though.

Well, FT took the step as you say.. they are the instigator here.

But, they are in their right to do so and would have given proper written notice
to Cogent so this isnt as much a surprise to them as is being suggested either.

Steve

Is Cogent filtering the prefixes they get from Verio? Or is Verio
filtering what they send to Cogent? Does it matter?

Or OT tagging their announcements to Sprint in a way that prevents them
being announced to Cogent in order to force Cogent into buying transit.

I think you have a very good point - FT is buying full transit. Cogent
is the one without full reachability.

Indeed. That's the inherent danger of "playing tier 1".

I myself find being tier 2 much more comfortable. :slight_smile: I'm not sure
wether the effort to become (and maintain!) tier 1 status (and I'm
talking of the technical term == transit free) is economically a good
idea (anymore).

Doesn't mean that FT didn't know this would be a problem when they took
the step, though.

I wonder how much non-BGP-transit traffic is on Cogent (static
customers, colocation). My guess is that it's quite low and one might
say "well, BGP routes around the problem". People do have multiple
upstreams (often seen in the setup "primary Cogent because of price, and
1-2 others secondary for quality and resilience").

Best regards,
Daniel

Is Cogent filtering the prefixes they get from Verio? Or is Verio
filtering what they send to Cogent? Does it matter?

I think you have a very good point - FT is buying full transit. Cogent
is the one without full reachability.

Doesn't mean that FT didn't know this would be a problem when they took
the step, though.

  Cogent has offered to exchange traffic with OT in a manner that is
cost-effective for both sides. OT said, "no, do it in a way that is more
expensive for both of us". Which one is making a reasonable effort to
exchange traffic with anyone else willing to make a similar effort? To me,
that is the standard by which connectivity should be judged.

  DS

For people interested hereafter our route-server:

telnet://route-server.opentransit.net

German

And if they don't get their collective acts together, I am certain they will both lose a lot of customers.

[Hijacking the thread here a bit]

I think this is a good point you brought out. Neither provider is providing _full_ transit to their customers. If this becomes acceptable to a set of customers [say the multihomed ones] then providers will have to set a new price point probably significantly lower than the price point today for "partial transit". In this case, partial transit is defined by the provider as the set of ASes they may or may not have connectivity to at a certain point in the contract -- rather than the other case of partial transit where the customer decides what ASes are interesting.

I think both providers in these depeering conflicts would be unhappy with where the customers would price this new partial-transit level of service at. Essentially, the responsibility of maintaining full-connectivity is pushed further onto those who have 2 connections.. now they need 3 or more to ensure they have 2 reliable/consistent paths to each destination of interest. I for one think that the providers that force their customers into this role should not be compensated at the same level as the providers that do a much better job of universal connectivity.

In other words, "break routes at your own risk." Smart customers will be watching [sooner or later ;)]..

disclaimer: I am not a customer of cogent, teleglobe, opentransit, and most companies that practice rabid peering discussions -- even for layer 1/2 transport if I can help it.

Deepak Jain

That doesn't show what your outgoing route-map/policy-chain looks like
towards your Sprint hand-offs. :slight_smile:

Just to make sure: I'm NOT implying you do that tagging, I just say that
it's a technical possibility which wasn't mentioned.

Best regards,
Daniel