NYT on Thing.net

I realize that this is skirting the edge of operational, but I
think it is notable that Verios security policy and incident
response allowed for an entire ISP to be disconnected at
their discretion.

I suppose that any ISP can turn off a connection they deem
a threat to the rest of their operations, but I think this
incident can serve as an example of how ISP's can get dragged
into political spats. It shows how Verio was manipulated
by Dow to squelch critics, but also how their incident response
was used to martyr the ISP they shut down.

It is also worth noting how Verio allowed themselves to be PR
collateral damage, taking one of their customers down in the
process, when the conflict was between a group of artists and Dow.

If only large providers were this responsive to spam.

Cheers,

Uhm. If an ISP has a policy catch-all clause of "We can disconnect
customers at will, without reason" then you get what you deserve,
responsibility for your actions.

After a few big money costing lawsuits over this, I hope ISP's will
return to their common-carrier status. I have no hopes that they
will do so from a moral or ethical point of viwe, but let's hope
they do so from a commercial point of view.

If as an ISP, you don't want to get involved, it is very simple
- Only take action based on court decisions (or in the case of the
  US, also DMCA requests and DMCA notice expirations)
- If a third party wants any information/decision against a customer,
  make them indemnify you for any consequences their legal action
  will have on you, the ISP.

This way, you're out of the loop, let the parties fight each other in
court, and do whatever the judge tells you to do, without the risk of
getting sued by one of the parties involved for your (in)actions.

With policies like that, you can host things like say, http://xenu.net/
without getting sued by even such trigger happy people as Scientology O:)

Paul

thing.net is located at 601 West 26th Street in New York City, a
building split about evenly between carrier facilities and commercial
office space.

Around the time their squabbles with Verio took place, they were
approached by building neighbors aware of their struggles, offering
backup connectivity on favorable terms.

In reading this and other articles, it seems to me they're more
interested in complaining to the media about so-called impiety on
Verio's part, than acquiring alternate connectivity and retaining
their subscriber base.

Of course, I could be off-base, in which case I encourage others privy
to more details of the situation to speak up.

Regards,
-a

Uhm. If an ISP has a policy catch-all clause of "We can disconnect
customers at will, without reason" then you get what you deserve,
responsibility for your actions.

After a few big money costing lawsuits over this, I hope ISP's will
return to their common-carrier status. I have no hopes that they
will do so from a moral or ethical point of viwe, but let's hope
they do so from a commercial point of view.

If as an ISP, you don't want to get involved, it is very simple
- Only take action based on court decisions (or in the case of the
  US, also DMCA requests and DMCA notice expirations)
- If a third party wants any information/decision against a customer,
  make them indemnify you for any consequences their legal action
  will have on you, the ISP.

This way, you're out of the loop, let the parties fight each other in
court, and do whatever the judge tells you to do, without the risk of
getting sued by one of the parties involved for your (in)actions.

With policies like that, you can host things like say, http://xenu.net/
without getting sued by even such trigger happy people as Scientology O:)

This has been a discussion item in the Swedish ISP business for quite some time (for a reason).

The matter is actually a lot more complex than what you say above.

First of all, in my opinion (and this seems to be pretty common), a company should be free to choose who they sign contracts and business deals with. In principle, if I believe that a potential customer will end up in financial trouble, if I believe that having him as a client will harm other business relations (out of competitive claims etc) or similar issues, I should be in my full right to deny signing a contract.

At the same time, I as an ISP do not want to categorically based on content, ethics, morals etc deny customers or disconnect customers. Especially for content that is judged illegal. If content is illegal that is up to the courts and police to judge and take action on.

Now, getting these two claims to work together is the tricky balance.

- kurtis -

This has been a discussion item in the Swedish ISP business for quite
some time (for a reason).
The matter is actually a lot more complex than what you say above.

How ironic, would that be because of Flashback magazine? :slight_smile:

For those who do not know, Flashback is a Swedish e-zine, that had about a
million subscribers. It was also one of the first "free isps" before that
concept took off commercially, so it allowed people free homepages. At
some point some political person had a problem with various rightwing
websites hosted on Flashback. Things were even brought into court, where
the judge ruled that the material published by those rightwing websites
was perhaps not very nice, but it wasn't illegal, so there was nothing
the courts could or should do about it.
The ISP of Flashback then had to disconnect them because otherwise the
ISP itself would get disconnected by UUnet. UUnet also stated that any
Swedisch ISP connecting Flashback would itself be disconnected. Flashback
then temporarily had to move its hosting to outside Sweden (we did their
hosting, ironically with UUnet as our upstream for half of the time)
for six months, before it managed to get a local connection again.

In short, UUnet corporate policy stood above Swedisch law........

This is exactly why ISP's should not be allowed to have these "we will
disconnect you at our sole discretion" clauses. It makes them stand
above the law, and the defense of "you can go to another ISP" is
false, because you cannot. Most, if not every ISP has these clauses, and
those who don't probably buy transit from those who do. The enduser has
no choice. He is simply not protected by law. Welcome to the Corporate
Republic.

First of all, in my opinion (and this seems to be pretty common), a
company should be free to choose who they sign contracts and business
deals with.

Only within reason. You cannot excludes based on various reasons, such
as religion, believes, race, sex, etc. Most countries have laws against
such discrimination.
The important thing is to have openly published, clear and
non-discriminatory reasons for canceling/denying a contract. As an ISP,
you shouldn't discriminate at all, if you ever want to be soon as a
common carrier, which is what you want, unless you want to start a
lawfirm instead of an ISP business.

In principle, if I believe that a potential customer will
end up in financial trouble,

The above is unrelated to wanting to have some security for payment.
Your financial security should be based on generic rules applying to all
your customers.

if I believe that having him as a client
will harm other business relations (out of competitive claims etc) or
similar issues, I should be in my full right to deny signing a contract.

You should not! You will open yourself to threats from all your customers.
Your big customers will end up deciding your company's policy. This is BAD!
Canceling a customer that has done nothing wrong, is just ethically and
morally wrong. You might as well condone the Great Firewall of China.

As a simple example, say you are hosting www.shell.se, and Greenpeace
asks you for hosting. You agree, and then Shell (by far a much bigger
and profitable customer for you) tells you it will go elsewhere if you do
not cancel your hosting agreement with Greenpeace. Now, your company's
reason is VERY valid, it is in the company's financial interest to cancel
Greenpeace. And since Greenpeace has done nothing wrong, you can only
cancel them based on "in sole discretion".

I do not believe any ISP should be able to make the above decision. In
fact, I would say they should be protected against this. Being a common
carrier, (or as we do, by not having a "in our sole discretion" clause),
you will never have to face this decision. You can tell Shell that their
request simple cannot be honoured, even though you would prefer to keep
them rather then Greenpeace.
It might seem as a bitter pill, Shell would probably still go elsewhere,
but at least you don't open Pandora's Box. Imagine that for every customer
you have to check whether it is a risk to losing a bigger customer.

At the same time, I as an ISP do not want to categorically based on
content, ethics, morals etc deny customers or disconnect customers.
Especially for content that is judged illegal.

As you stated, I doubt it is illegal to judge on content, since ISP's have
no offcial common carrier status in Sweden. So, it is legal for you to
discriminate, as long as you don't violate general law (eg racism). I'm
sure it is legal for you to say you don't accept customers that are for
instance, environmentalists, even when you admit that it would be based
on hosting oil companies.

If content is illegal
that is up to the courts and police to judge and take action on.

If you truly believe that, you should incorporate that in the company
policy, thereby giving up the right to cancel in your sole discretion,
including perhaps giving up some of your biggest customers. You can't
have the cake and eat it too.

Now, getting these two claims to work together is the tricky balance.

You cannot. You want to discriminate based on your company's interest
first, and your customers' rights second. By doing so, you are not
better then those big bullying customers of yours yourself.

You can't grab the best of both worlds, and deny the customers you don't
like, and keep the ones you like, and then say you don't want to get
involved in conflicts. Either you universally accept customers based on
public, generic conditions, or you open up your company for legal disputes.

As a side note: This is exactly what happened with us and Priority
Telecom. The potential cost of Scientology's legal bill was far more then
what they would possibly earn from having us as a customer. So our
contract was terminated (well, officially it was "nothing to do with
Scientology" and "without any reason in our sole discretion"). Is that
the "freedom" you want to have as an ISP? Is that how you want to make
your money? I hope not. We at least didn't. We got ourselves different
and better connectivity, moving upwards in the ISP foodchain to protect
us further from these kind of dependancies. Yes, we lost money on our
customer, and it will take years of them hosting their business with us to
even break even. But I strongly feel it is my responsibility as an ISP to
protect the freedom of speech of my customrs against bullies, and to put
these issues back where they belong: Between the parties involved in court.

If only one ISP would remove the catch-all phrase for every time I tried
to explain this, the problem would have practically disappeared by now :frowning:

Paul

This has been a discussion item in the Swedish ISP business for quite
some time (for a reason).
The matter is actually a lot more complex than what you say above.

How ironic, would that be because of Flashback magazine? :slight_smile:

To some extent, but not recently. Mostly due to child-porn, TV decoder piracy and a number of other issues.

For those who do not know, Flashback is a Swedish e-zine, that had about a
million subscribers. It was also one of the first "free isps" before that
concept took off commercially, so it allowed people free homepages. At
some point some political person had a problem with various rightwing
websites hosted on Flashback. Things were even brought into court, where
the judge ruled that the material published by those rightwing websites
was perhaps not very nice, but it wasn't illegal, so there was nothing
the courts could or should do about it.
The ISP of Flashback then had to disconnect them because otherwise the
ISP itself would get disconnected by UUnet. UUnet also stated that any
Swedisch ISP connecting Flashback would itself be disconnected. Flashback
then temporarily had to move its hosting to outside Sweden (we did their
hosting, ironically with UUnet as our upstream for half of the time)
for six months, before it managed to get a local connection again.

In short, UUnet corporate policy stood above Swedisch law........

This is exactly why ISP's should not be allowed to have these "we will
disconnect you at our sole discretion" clauses. It makes them stand
above the law, and the defense of "you can go to another ISP" is
false, because you cannot. Most, if not every ISP has these clauses, and
those who don't probably buy transit from those who do. The enduser has
no choice. He is simply not protected by law. Welcome to the Corporate
Republic.

Just for the record, your story above is far from complete and not true on all accounts. It is also a quite simplified version of what happened. Summary is that no matter what the ISPs (this is not UUnet alone, actually pretty much all ISPs denied service, even those that where not behind UUnet. I am not sure if the UUnet threat story is true. This is quite some time ago) would have done or said they would have got shot down by public opinion. There was quite a lot of press articles on how horrible it was that these neo-nazi sites (which is what they where) was allowed to be on the Internet without action from the providers.

This is a discussion you as ISP simply can't win.

First of all, in my opinion (and this seems to be pretty common), a
company should be free to choose who they sign contracts and business
deals with.

Only within reason. You cannot excludes based on various reasons, such
as religion, believes, race, sex, etc. Most countries have laws against
such discrimination.

Correct, no objection.

The important thing is to have openly published, clear and
non-discriminatory reasons for canceling/denying a contract. As an ISP,
you shouldn't discriminate at all, if you ever want to be soon as a
common carrier, which is what you want, unless you want to start a
lawfirm instead of an ISP business.

Well, I can also see clear business reasons as to why I would deny a client. If I had Coca-Cola as a customer and Pepsi-cola wanted to buy a service, but Cola then threatens to leave, I should be in my full right to deny Pepsi service.

if I believe that having him as a client
will harm other business relations (out of competitive claims etc) or
similar issues, I should be in my full right to deny signing a contract.

You should not! You will open yourself to threats from all your customers.
Your big customers will end up deciding your company's policy. This is BAD!

Well, if that is where the money flows in from, it's not that bad.

As a simple example, say you are hosting www.shell.se, and Greenpeace
asks you for hosting. You agree, and then Shell (by far a much bigger
and profitable customer for you) tells you it will go elsewhere if you do
not cancel your hosting agreement with Greenpeace. Now, your company's
reason is VERY valid, it is in the company's financial interest to cancel
Greenpeace. And since Greenpeace has done nothing wrong, you can only
cancel them based on "in sole discretion".

Yes? See my example above. I see no conflict in this. It's called a free market.

At the same time, I as an ISP do not want to categorically based on
content, ethics, morals etc deny customers or disconnect customers.
Especially for content that is judged illegal.

As you stated, I doubt it is illegal to judge on content, since ISP's have
no offcial common carrier status in Sweden. So, it is legal for you to
discriminate, as long as you don't violate general law (eg racism). I'm
sure it is legal for you to say you don't accept customers that are for
instance, environmentalists, even when you admit that it would be based
on hosting oil companies.

The problem comes when you for example enter into content. If I as an ISP removes content based on the assumption it's illegal (let's take TV decoder information as example), I will do the role of the police and courts. I have made the judgement. This in my view requires a request from the police rather than doing this as you go buy. This will otherwise open the pandoras box you describe, where you would have to judge what is illegal political content, child porn, etc.

If content is illegal
that is up to the courts and police to judge and take action on.

If you truly believe that, you should incorporate that in the company
policy, thereby giving up the right to cancel in your sole discretion,
including perhaps giving up some of your biggest customers. You can't
have the cake and eat it too.

Notice the difference between judging content and choosing connectivity customers.

- kurtis -

Just for the record, your story above is far from complete and not true
on all accounts. It is also a quite simplified version of what
happened.

Perhaps Zenon (Whom I cc:ed just because he knows the details) can
shed some more light on this.

have got shot down by public opinion. There was quite a lot of press
articles on how horrible it was that these neo-nazi sites (which is
what they where) was allowed to be on the Internet without action from
the providers.

A court deemed it nasty but legal. Whom are the ISP's to go against a
court decision?

This is a discussion you as ISP simply can't win.

I shouldn't be *in* the discussion as an ISP.

Well, I can also see clear business reasons as to why I would deny a
client. If I had Coca-Cola as a customer and Pepsi-cola wanted to buy a
service, but Cola then threatens to leave, I should be in my full right
to deny Pepsi service.

Well, if that is where the money flows in from, it's not that bad.

It is also where the lawsuits flow from. If you really are just
interested in the money, then be honest and also say that you don't
give a cent about your small customers, nor their freedom or civil
rights (which is what you and all other ISP's are forcing them to
sign away)

Yes? See my example above. I see no conflict in this. It's called a
free market.

It is *not* a free market. Imagine AOL blocking Greenpeace. Is this still
normal, and ethically and morally okay, because that earns AOL some extra
Shell bucks. Monetairy interests without any scupulous, which is what
you claim, is exact the end of free market, and the reigh of the Corporate
company.

The problem comes when you for example enter into content.

That is *exactly* why we do not enter into content. We ask the parties to
go to court and present us with a ruling. I am not a court, ruler, dictator,
policeman, lawyer nor executioner. I am an ISP.

If I as an
ISP removes content based on the assumption it's illegal (let's take TV
decoder information as example), I will do the role of the police and
courts. I have made the judgement. This in my view requires a request
from the police rather than doing this as you go buy.

Not the police, the courts. Yes, you should tell Astra to get a court
ruling against your customer. (Or if you would be a US company, ask for
a formal DMCA notice, and then ask for the eventual court ruling. If
there will be no legal action, as per DMCA, you reinstate the content,
which by then has gained immunity from DMCA notices from that party.

This will
otherwise open the pandoras box you describe, where you would have to
judge what is illegal political content, child porn, etc.

In our 7 years of existence, we have never had to "rule" ourselves. And
we do host some high profile website, such as the ones I've mentioned
before, Xenu.net and FlashBack magazine.

Notice the difference between judging content and choosing connectivity
customers.

There is no difference. And if there is, the difference is only judged
by you. You are not a court. You can, and should not, rule.

Paul

Just for the record, your story above is far from complete and not true
on all accounts. It is also a quite simplified version of what
happened.

Perhaps Zenon (Whom I cc:ed just because he knows the details) can
shed some more light on this.

Well, I was (still is) a member of the Swedish Operator Forum, and I was part of making the decision on behalf of KPNQwest. I think I know what happened as well as anyone else does. But this is off-topic for this list.

have got shot down by public opinion. There was quite a lot of press
articles on how horrible it was that these neo-nazi sites (which is
what they where) was allowed to be on the Internet without action from
the providers.

A court deemed it nasty but legal. Whom are the ISP's to go against a
court decision?

The question was not if the content was "nasty" or not. The question was that there was a web-site that urged people to take to violence to a politician that had tried to work against the neo-nazis. There where several court cases (and I think it's still being discussed) that all came to different conclusions. This I don't know the details of.

But to the point, just because a site is legal, do I need to host it? I think not. What if all customers then decide to leave? I would be forced into bankruptcy.

Well, I can also see clear business reasons as to why I would deny a
client. If I had Coca-Cola as a customer and Pepsi-cola wanted to buy a
service, but Cola then threatens to leave, I should be in my full right
to deny Pepsi service.

Well, if that is where the money flows in from, it's not that bad.

It is also where the lawsuits flow from. If you really are just
interested in the money, then be honest and also say that you don't
give a cent about your small customers, nor their freedom or civil
rights (which is what you and all other ISP's are forcing them to
sign away)

If a company don't generate money they won't be around to protect freedom and civil acts.

Also, most companies are actually only in it for the money, and the small customers own shares in the company and expects them to earn as much money as possible.

Few ISPs are driven out of devotion and good faith.

Yes? See my example above. I see no conflict in this. It's called a
free market.

It is *not* a free market. Imagine AOL blocking Greenpeace. Is this still
normal, and ethically and morally okay, because that earns AOL some extra
Shell bucks. Monetairy interests without any scupulous, which is what
you claim, is exact the end of free market, and the reigh of the Corporate
company.

This is a political statement and actually that is where this discussion is going. I suggest we move this off-list if we are to continue.

This will
otherwise open the pandoras box you describe, where you would have to
judge what is illegal political content, child porn, etc.

In our 7 years of existence, we have never had to "rule" ourselves. And
we do host some high profile website, such as the ones I've mentioned
before, Xenu.net and FlashBack magazine.

Notice that you are located in a country with a very different base of ethics and a much more liberal view on most things compared to the Nordics. The web-sites at Flashback that was "nasty" would most likely have been illegal in Germany and a subject for the Constitutional court in Karlsruhe.

I have worked in the Nordics, Netherlands and Germany. Public opinion, law and traditions vary a lot. This will also have influence on actions taken.

- kurtis -

This is only marginally on topic, but I know Ted Byfield (quoted
as a Thing.net board member in the NYT) from elsewhere so I
forwarded Adam's post to him for comment. Followups to
nanog-offtopic please, I won't continue the thread here.

Ted's reply is below.