Network for Sale

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1

To EVERYONE who has contacted me offlist regarding my being so hard on
Jay:

If this company were truely revelational, my WIFE would have told me about
it and I would not have ready about them for the first time on NANOG.
They are letting their marketing monkeys run wild, duping unknowing
customers into thinking they're getting something better than ANY other
provider can give them. By design, their network depends on BGP4 because
they depend on TRANSIT from other providers.

If they had peering relationships with "God and everybody", "Everywhere",
perhaps their new, fangled technology would have some benefit. As it
stands, from what I can grep from their "marketing
s^&#%&t".....er.....website, they have NOTHING to offer that
SAVVIS/INTERNAP/(every other like-type provider) have to offer besides
perhaps the fact that their network will be faster until they inevitably
grow beyone capacity at which time, their marketing types will announce
their new "OC-10,1000" network buildout with an estimated turnup date of
1/1/3000.

Beyond that, I'm _REALLY_ sick of people pissing and moaning about NAPS
being congestion points. If you're so tired of the exchange point being
slow, INVEST IN MAKING IT FASTER!!!!! It's _NOT_ that hard. It's to
_YOUR_ benefit. Moral of the mini-tangent: It's not the NAP, it's the
OPERATOR. If they're too greedy to invest in infrastructure, you should
investigate alternatives, At the same time, those of you with pipes
trying to run at 150% to the exchange points should be ashamed! Someone
shoot me when money becomes more important to me than the performance of
my network.

So, basically, what we're looking at is "Same s%^t, different company
name."

Jay: _PLEASE_ show different. I'll gladly be shown to be wrong. I'm not
holding my breath though.

2

nanog@Overkill.EnterZone.Net (John Fraizer) writes:

Beyond that, I'm _REALLY_ sick of people pissing and moaning about NAPS
being congestion points. If you're so tired of the exchange point being
slow, INVEST IN MAKING IT FASTER!!!!! ...

That's what PAIX did. And Equinix for that matter. Exchange points aren't
slow, though I admit that some of the ATM-based exchanges have hit their
scaling limit. Exchange points based on Ethernet with rich PNI opportunities
literally do not have scaling limits.

The existence of the OPTIX/SAVVIS/InterNAP model isn't an an indictment of
exchange points so much as it is of the routing system itself. However,
bloating the global routing table with lots of discontiguous subnets isn't
a workable solution. These networks need backbones and rich peering so they
can negotiate deaggregation with just those peers who want the detail.
Otherwise they're just value-added resellers of other networks who DO have
backbones and rich private peering. (Which is what MIBH was, so I'm aware
of the customer-perceived benefits in the value being added -- the difference
is that MIBH was honest about it.)

3

I'm curious - has anyone performed a study of the BGP convergence
times at NAPs? I mean, all those private interconnects are good and
fine and all, but with the existing BGP implementations in vendor
equipment today, I can see the BGP convergence as this big matrix
of relationships of BGP performance of peers routers.

On the same breath, why aren't people using route-servers at NAPs?

Adrian

4

Why aren't people using route-servers at NAPs?

Some of us are. Merit, PCH, and CIX all have production route-servers
that people actually use. Not a vast number of folks, but every little
bit helps stability.

                                -Bill

5

We had a route-server at LINX. However, they were taken down because of
lack of interest. People just wanted to manage their own BGP config, and
didn't go for a third party being in the loop in a big way.

A RIPE NCC RIS collector box has now taken the place of the route server
at LINX, and as I recall, more people peer with that than they did the
route server.

Mike

6

Hi Folks,

About three weeks ago, I sent an email to the .us domain registry (now
Verisign), asking for some information that I couldn't get through their
web site. After 3.5 weeks, I got an email saying "check our web site,"
and their phone number is nothing more than a tape saying "send us email."

Does anybody have any ideas on how to reach a real human being over there?

Thanks much,

Miles Fidelman

7

John-

Calm down and cut Jay some slack. Everyone is guilty at one time or
another of letting their Marketing Dept get the best of them. For example,
Enterzone/EZ-Hosting seems to have been bitten by the same bug. Im not
sure if you have seen the Enterzone website lately, but there are claims
of having "Cisco 7500 series routers " and various "Cisco switch" models.
After a few quick show versions from your stats.cmh-ix.net and
nitrous.enterzone.net, I have found the following:

Zebra 0.89a (i686-pc-linux-gnu).
Copyright 1996-2000, Kunihiro Ishiguro.
Border-Core0-BGP
(border AND core all in one box? Neat! Some people try to separate their
border from their core from their edge from their aggregation boxes, but
this is an interesting idea... Put it all on one RedHat box running Zebra)

Zebra 0.90 (mipsel-unknown-linux-gnu).
Copyright 1996-2000, Kunihiro Ishiguro.
CMH-IX_Route_Server-1

Zebra 0.90 (mipsel-unknown-linux-gnu).
Copyright 1996-2000, Kunihiro Ishiguro.
CMH-IX_Route_Server-2

Those dont look to be Cisco 75xx routers to me. BTW, how is the HP
ProCurve holding up?

Trying 209.115.127.22...
Connected to 209.115.127.22.
Escape character is '^]'.
SSH-1.5-1.2.27

Time to upgrade that SSH rev on the "border-core-0" John. Check out
Securityfocus or packetstorm to see the vulnerabilities that are public in
your current operational rev of SSH.

-troy

8

Sold???

360networks Snags NetRail

http://www.broadbandweek.com/newsdirect/0102/direct010220.htm

9

Sold???

360networks Snags NetRail

http://www.broadbandweek.com/newsdirect/0102/direct010220.htm

If they do I bet they don't know what they are getting into. NetRail still
has a mess in the past that they need to clean up before they start fixing
the current mess they have.

<>

Nathan Stratton CTO, Exario Networks, Inc.
nathan@robotics.net nathan@exario.net
http://www.robotics.net http://www.exario.net

10

And exactly which part of your mess do you think I haven't cleaned up yet?
Pray do tell.

Brandon Ross 404-522-5400
EVP Engineering, NetRail http://www.netrail.net
AIM: BrandonNR ICQ: 2269442
Read RFC 2644!

11

Yeah, respond to all the spamming they've been doing of .us admins. I saw them
answer their spam...............to everyone they spammed.

-M

12

> If they do I bet they don't know what they are getting into. NetRail still
> has a mess in the past that they need to clean up before they start fixing
> the current mess they have.

And exactly which part of your mess do you think I haven't cleaned up yet?
Pray do tell.

Brandon Ross 404-522-5400
EVP Engineering, NetRail http://www.netrail.net
AIM: BrandonNR ICQ: 2269442
Read RFC 2644!

Wow. Do we get front row seats to the title fight?

Tim

13

I don't think there will be much of a fight, Nathan is bouncing all mail
from netrail.net. It's just as well, I didn't really want to fill NANOG
with off topic garbage, I just couldn't let it go without a response.

Brandon Ross 404-522-5400
EVP Engineering, NetRail http://www.netrail.net
AIM: BrandonNR ICQ: 2269442
Read RFC 2644!

14

#1 I don't think NANOG is the place and #2 I have no problem with you or
anything you are doing at Netrail. You are not one of the people that
took NetRail from me. As far as the email, I have no interest in talking
to anyone at Netrail as sendmail will say when you try to send me email.
You frankly have no idea how the company was sold, I bet they said that
they actually paid me for the thing.

I am sure you guys disclosed to 360 that the fonder never received a dime
for NetRail and that there is a good possibility that he can prove fraud
and ownership to a very large chunk of stock.

Anyway, I think I have used enough NANOG bandwidth with this crap, I just
can't resist a little slam now and then.

-Nathan

15

The smart money is on Brandon...

- Daniel Golding

16

>
> > Sold???
> >
> > 360networks Snags NetRail
> >
> > http://www.broadbandweek.com/newsdirect/0102/direct010220.htm
>
> If they do I bet they don't know what they are getting into. NetRail still
> has a mess in the past that they need to clean up before they start fixing
> the current mess they have.

And exactly which part of your mess do you think I haven't cleaned up yet?
Pray do tell.

Netrail's unnecessary deaggregated routes.

BGP table version is 548878, local router ID is 216.74.127.225
Status codes: s suppressed, d damped, h history, * valid, > best, i - internal
Origin codes: i - IGP, e - EGP, ? - incomplete

   Network Next Hop Metric LocPrf Weight Path
--snip--
* 64.253.0.0/19 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 64.253.9.0/24 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 64.253.10.0/24 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
--snip--

Why announce two /24s terminating at the same AS out of the larger /19?

--snip--
* 131.226.0.0/19 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 131.226.0.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 131.226.32.0/19 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 131.226.64.0/19 63.211.88.5 100 0 3356 4006 i
* 131.226.96.0/19 63.211.88.5 100 0 3356 4006 i
* 131.226.128.0/19 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
--snip--

Why announce four /19s terminating at the same AS out of the larger /16?

--snip--
* 205.215.0.0/18 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 205.215.11.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.14.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 205.215.36.0 63.211.88.5 100 0 3356 4006 i
* 205.215.37.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.38.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.42.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.44.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.48.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.51.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.52.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.55.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 205.215.56.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.57.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.58.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 205.215.62.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
--snip--

Why announce fifteen /24s terminating at the same AS out of the
larger /18?

--snip--
* 207.31.64.0/18 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 207.31.72.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.74.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.76.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.81.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.82.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.83.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.84.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.87.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 207.31.92.0/22 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.96.0/21 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 207.31.104.0/21 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.115.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.118.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.31.120.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 207.31.123.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
--snip--

Why announce twelve /24s, two /21s, and one /22 terminating at the
same AS out of the larger /18?

--snip--
* 207.153.64.0/18 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 207.153.72.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.73.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.74.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.75.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.84.0/23 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.90.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.92.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.93.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.98.0/23 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.102.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.104.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.108.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.110.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.111.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.115.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.121.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 207.153.122.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 207.153.124.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 207.153.127.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
--snip--

Why announce seventeen /24s, and two /23s terminating at the same
AS out of the larger /18?

--snip--
* 209.44.64.0/23 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.64.0/18 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 209.44.66.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.68.0/22 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.72.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.76.0/22 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.81.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.82.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 ?
* 209.44.85.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.87.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.114.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.116.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
* 209.44.127.0 157.130.59.13 100 0 701 4006 i
--snip--

Why announce nine /24s, two /22s, and one /23 terminating at the
same AS out of the larger /18?

And I won't even start on the other ASes hanging off of NetRail...

17

<Disclaimer>
Please don't flame me if I am doing something wrong.
Just tell me how to do it better.
</Disclaimer>

We are advertising 2 /20 which can be (theoretically) aggregated
to one /19

route-server.cerf.net>sh ip bgp 200.62.0.0
BGP routing table entry for 200.62.0.0/20, version 5199340
Paths: (4 available, best #3)
  Not advertised to any peer
  1740 4006 18747
    198.32.176.25 from 198.32.176.25 (134.24.127.39)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external
  1740 4006 18747
    192.41.177.69 from 192.41.177.69 (134.24.127.131)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external
  1740 4006 18747
    192.157.69.5 from 192.157.69.5 (134.24.127.201)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external, best
  1740 4006 18747
    134.24.88.55 from 134.24.88.55 (134.24.127.27)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external

route-server.cerf.net>sh ip bgp 200.62.16.0
BGP routing table entry for 200.62.16.0/20, version 5199341
Paths: (4 available, best #1)
  Not advertised to any peer
  1740 4006 18747
    192.157.69.5 from 192.157.69.5 (134.24.127.201)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external, best
  1740 4006 18747
    198.32.176.25 from 198.32.176.25 (134.24.127.39)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external
  1740 4006 18747
    192.41.177.69 from 192.41.177.69 (134.24.127.131)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external
  1740 4006 18747
    134.24.88.55 from 134.24.88.55 (134.24.127.27)
      Origin IGP, metric 20, localpref 100, valid, external
route-server.cerf.net>

The reason for doing this is simple:
First /20 is in US, second /20 is in VE
and I want to advertise Venezuelan part (and only this)
to some local VE provider in addition to NetRail.

If I would advertise aggregated /19 to NetRail,
I would receive all traffic for this multihomed /20
only from second VE provider, as more specific advertisement
would be preferred in route selection process.

Maybe they are doing the same.

Przemek

18

<Disclaimer>
Please don't flame me if I am doing something wrong.
Just tell me how to do it better.
</Disclaimer>

I wouldn't do that.

The reason for doing this is simple:
First /20 is in US, second /20 is in VE
and I want to advertise Venezuelan part (and only this)
to some local VE provider in addition to NetRail.

If I would advertise aggregated /19 to NetRail,
I would receive all traffic for this multihomed /20
only from second VE provider, as more specific advertisement
would be preferred in route selection process.

You are absolutely right, and we do, indeed, have several customers that
fit this sort of need. One question, though, do you have a need for full
transit from the second VE provider, or is it really more for a peering
like relationship? If it's just that VE provider's traffic you are
looking to optimize for that /20, you might consider sending the /20 to
the VE provider with no-export set and sending the whole /19 to us. It
would reduce the number of routes the whole internet has to see. Also, it
would probably be better to send NetRail the /20 used in VE, and the whole
/19 instead of 2 /20's. It's a very minor enhancement, if any at all, but
people don't complain as much about smaller routes being advertised inside
of larger routes as compared to obvious aggregations like 2 /20's. Not a
big deal, but something to think about.

Brandon Ross 404-522-5400
EVP Engineering, NetRail http://www.netrail.net
AIM: BrandonNR ICQ: 2269442
Read RFC 2644!

19

One reason why I thought the name should have been changed long ago. The only thing about Netrail that is legacy is the name. There is nothing left from the original company of long ago and a name change would have helped show that. The people there have helped bring it a long way and deserve the credit for doing so. It brings up the interesting point of when do the people that are there start getting the credit instead of a former founder that has not had anything to do with the company for 4 years. I mean that as a general topic not just relating to Netrail.

As far as this deal going Im sure that 360 got a hell of a head start on an IP network by their purchase and Netrail found a good home. Nice to see happy endings on the net.

My hats off to the Netrail team. Especial congrats to Nathan E, Mark, Keith and Brandon. I also hope Scott P never decides to flame me on a lis, apparently he has a talent. I hope you all are getting 360network Porsches.

Once again congrats gentlemen, my hats off to you. It was an honor and a pleasure to serve with you all.

David

20

One reason why I thought the name should have been changed long ago.
The only thing about Netrail that is legacy is the name. There is
nothing left from the original company of long ago and a name change
would have helped show that. The people there have helped bring it a
long way and deserve the credit for doing so. It brings up the
interesting point of when do the people that are there start getting
the credit instead of a former founder that has not had anything to
do with the company for 4 years. I mean that as a general topic not
just relating to Netrail.

All you guys did was add money to what I built. You are selling because of
the peering that I set up. Sure you expanded on that a lot, but I am the
guy who got NetRail transit free.

As far as this deal going Im sure that 360 got a hell of a head start
on an IP network by their purchase and Netrail found a good home.
Nice to see happy endings on the net.

Well happy endings are when I get paid for my company. What 360 wants what
I built, not what you guys did after I left.

My hats off to the Netrail team. Especial congrats to Nathan E,
Mark, Keith and Brandon. I also hope Scott P never decides to flame
me on a lis, apparently he has a talent. I hope you all are getting
360network Porsches.

Nathan E and Keith are great guys, I am the guy who hired them and get
them into this business.

P.S. Nathan E and Keith, I do hope you get your Porsches, you guys have
come a very very long way in 5 years. I wish I made some money from
NetRail, but I was albe to buy my Porsche and house without NetRail and
would love to race someday in Atlanta. I may not win in my Boxster S, but
my new 911 GT3 will blow you away. :slight_smile:

-Nathan