NANOG, its decline in s/n

Having been a participant of the NANOG list since 1995, twice
a past host of the meetings, and someone that believes we should
help and educate, I am most concerned over the trend that is
showing itself here on the list.

This is a list about knowledge, share, help, and operations.

Some on this list are "Old Pro's" others are just "Old ....."

I see new names, new faces, sometimes the same questions, sometimes
slight variences of those questions.

What then happens is people attack the sender (heck I've even been
slightly guilty of this), banish them to

Threads move quickly from the question to debates on random junk
and thus become a waste to the community.

When I first got on the Internet, 1984, it was full of cooperative
and helpful people. 18 years later, not so much.

We have real issues to deal with, DMCA, Clarke, The Implosion of ICANN
(with means the ITU will run things me thinks, not good), and various
other laws, acts and general clue.void from

So instead of picking on each other, calling it "standard NANOG hazing"
or whatever, lets help, be good in our technical honesty, or don't
post. If someone doesn't listen to your answer, a BIGGER stick isn't
going to help, take it private, or move along.

We are all pro's here, right ?? We got a net to run, lets go do it.


john brown
a person not speaking for anyone else

Well said.

What happened to ihighway?


I agree with what you have said. I too have hosted nanog, and it was a pleasure... except if you ran out of cookies.

What I have seen is that nanog was a "community" more then anything else. This list does not only exchange information, it represents built relationships among a lot of engineers. Some go well beyond simple business relationship and reach a personal level.

The "old pro's" may simply remember a time not so long ago when nanog was 45 people or so in jeans talking about BGP and peering and sharing a t-shirt or two. Nanog pro's remember days when you knew everyone on the list and in the room, and knew their histories. So here we are, doing what most old foggies do and talk about the good ole days, and how these young whipper snappers dont knew how to behave.

The truth is that while operations posts are the norm, an occasion piece of slightly off-topic information doesnt bother me, on the contrary I think it helps us remember that we are a community. I would love to see an off-topic nanog list we could subscribe to, but no efforts to create side lists have seemed to have taken off.

I have noticed that many of the pro's have stopped posting. Is it because of their displeasure with the list or is it because now their boss's have now subscribed to the list. It's visibility in the internet world has squashed a lot of free discussion on this list is my opinion. Just as your sig mentions "not speaking for anyone else."

And for the record, I learn a lot from the pro's and newbies on this list. So I hope both keep posting, and replying off-list with extremely helpful information. I have appreciated it greatly.


PS- I have not seen great activity on any peering lists. Perhaps a bot unsubscribed a bunch of people. If I could be emailed off list, I would appreciate any current activities or small lists discussing peering openly. Perhaps something list visible. Thanks again.

I've been a lurker on the list for a good long while now, and recently I
have become pretty active. I think a lot of the pro's post, and the
problem isn't that the people are banished to (I like
that by the way.), but that the people that originally asked the
question endlessly debate the advice that gets posted by people that
really know what they're talking about. This causes a great deal of
frustration, and it's how the endless loops in threads end up happening
(I.e. the deagg thread, or the verio/istop arrogance thread.) I think
this is when people start to get seriously hazed. I really believe that
if people that post a question sit back and honestly listen to the
answers, it will go back to being a true resource for people having
network issues, or reporting problems on the net. That being said,
you're 100% right. I posted this so maybe the newer posters will sit
back and really think about the technical merits of what people have to
say, rather than just argue it because they didn't really think hard
enough on it.

My three cents.

I'd tend to agree. B

Then again I'm just bitter, I expect it:).

I think you have some really good points. I think a lot of us have
fairly dark but similar senses of humor. Its likely that aybe people
not used to this take things the wrong way sometimes. I'm however not
against being operation or careful and respectful but I actually enjoy
some of the tongue and cheek responses on here.

I've said it about the IETF list, but it's equally applicable here.

The average poster has a fairly high chance of not being "all there" - which
is not surprising, as this is a self-reinforcing state in our industry.
After all - most of us have as our claim to fame the ability to talk to
inanimate objects and convince them they want to listen to us.