> If xDSL can only run about 18kft end-to-end, to service a wide metro area
> like Washington, D.C. one would either have to have a POP within every 6
> mile radius (fed by conventional circuits) or backhaul the data (by
> conventional circuit) to their POP.
>
> Is this correct, if not, what am I missing?
That's correct. DSL is a baseband technology, running over copper.
Read: layer 1. The only practical place to put DSL headends right now
is in RBOC CO's. No one else has the point to point copper -- it's not
a multiplexed layer 1 service like cablemodems.
OR.... You have to be the RBOC. Or subservient to same.
People keep asking me "Why is Hell Titanic so hot on xDSL and
so cold on ISDN?" and this is the reason; with ISDN, you control
who you talk to, with xDSL, THEY do.
"Hey Ms. ISP, want to compete against bellatlantic.net's offering?
Rent xDSL connections from us. Period."
OR.... You have to be the RBOC. Or subservient to same.
People keep asking me "Why is Hell Titanic so hot on xDSL and
so cold on ISDN?" and this is the reason; with ISDN, you control
who you talk to, with xDSL, THEY do.
Bell Atlantic has a much bigger project in the works then what has been
announced by the other 5 RBOCs - they are ahead of the game, announcements
probably this summer across the entire footprint (Maine to VA) - it will
be based on the current trials which are very fair to the ISP's.
"Hey Ms. ISP, want to compete against bellatlantic.net's offering?
Rent xDSL connections from us. Period."
There are some problems with the trial model in the sales cycle, all calls
go to a BA center where the salesperons reveal all details such as
"provider X has Y bandwidth, provider BA has Y*5 bandwidth, im neutral but
if it was me (and my commisions) I'd go with BA". The numbers bear it out,
BA has the lions share of the beta customers.
Well my understanding here in PacBell/SBC land is that the way it will
work, (this comes from someone who made a naieve inquiry to another
equally naieve saleperson at PacBell/SBC), is that you need to connect to
PacBell's ATM backbone in order to order xDSL (the person just wanted to
connect from their home to the office), when I heard this I though it was
totally absurd but the truth, as they say is far stranger
What the salesguy was saying but (he really didn't know it) and what I
found out from a little digging is that PacBell's intent is to only sell
xDSl to CLECs ! So then it all makes sense, you need a router that
connects to their ATM cloud, then they just route the traffic from their
copper on over to your routers and presto! You are an xDSL enabled ISP!
So the question is, are CLECs subservient to RBOCs but I think this then
becomes a discussion for isp-telco not nanog.
In any event the time will soon come that if you want to be a real ISP,
you will have to become a CLEC.
Well my understanding here in PacBell/SBC land is that the way it will
work, (this comes from someone who made a naieve inquiry to another
equally naieve saleperson at PacBell/SBC), is that you need to connect to
PacBell's ATM backbone in order to order xDSL (the person just wanted to
connect from their home to the office), when I heard this I though it was
totally absurd but the truth, as they say is far stranger
Why is this absurd? You think coolocating routers at COs is less absurd?
Aggregating DSL traffic in a DSLAM and pumping it out via ATM is the
right way to do things.
(If I totally misunderstood and you are saying that using *ATM* is absurd, then
don't bother to reply. I'm an atheist.)
What the salesguy was saying but (he really didn't know it) and what I
found out from a little digging is that PacBell's intent is to only sell
xDSl to CLECs ! So then it all makes sense, you need a router that
connects to their ATM cloud, then they just route the traffic from their
copper on over to your routers and presto! You are an xDSL enabled ISP!
This is crap. Covad, Brainstorm, DNAI, etc. are CLECs?! I don't think so. Yet
they seem to be able to offer xDSL using P*B.
> Well my understanding here in PacBell/SBC land is that the way it will
> work, (this comes from someone who made a naieve inquiry to another
> equally naieve saleperson at PacBell/SBC), is that you need to connect to
> PacBell's ATM backbone in order to order xDSL (the person just wanted to
> connect from their home to the office), when I heard this I though it was
> totally absurd but the truth, as they say is far stranger
Why is this absurd? You think coolocating routers at COs is less absurd?
Aggregating DSL traffic in a DSLAM and pumping it out via ATM is the
right way to do things.
No it was absurd because my friend just wanted to run two adsl "modems"
between his office and home on copper. He was told that to do that he
needed to connect to PacBell's ATM backbone, that's whats absurd.
(If I totally misunderstood and you are saying that using *ATM* is absurd, then
see above
don't bother to reply. I'm an atheist.)
> What the salesguy was saying but (he really didn't know it) and what I
> found out from a little digging is that PacBell's intent is to only sell
> xDSl to CLECs ! So then it all makes sense, you need a router that
> connects to their ATM cloud, then they just route the traffic from their
> copper on over to your routers and presto! You are an xDSL enabled ISP!
This is crap. Covad, Brainstorm, DNAI, etc. are CLECs?! I don't think so. Yet
they seem to be able to offer xDSL using P*B.
not yet, but I bet in two years time they wiil be (or will be going out of
business)
When we started InterNex P*B didn't offer ISDN either, now try to make
money on that type of connectivity in the Bay Area.
No it was absurd because my friend just wanted to run two adsl "modems"
between his office and home on copper. He was told that to do that he
needed to connect to PacBell's ATM backbone, that's whats absurd.
two ADSL modems will not talk to each other back to back on a piece of
wire. If you want to fire up dry-copper connectivity between yourself
and a friend you want some sort of HDSL product; look at the Campus
line at http://www.pairgain.com/ovr_prd.htm
Tell him to order a 2-wire alarm circuit and slap a Tut 12000 (or your favorite
product) on each end. Yes, I've done it. And yes, it was in P*B territory.
Well it will work most of the time, but I have run into several problems
on a few connections. If you have a large ammount of bridge taps or load
coils you can run into problems.
On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 08:57:52PM -0800, Geoff White put this into my mailbox:
> Tell him to order a 2-wire alarm circuit and slap a Tut 12000 (or your favorite
> product) on each end. Yes, I've done it. And yes, it was in P*B territory.
>
Their wise to that now
There seems to be a moratorium on "alarm circuits"
As I understand it this is illegal; as long as the service (alarm circuit,
dry pair, whatever) is tariffed by whatever regulatory commission the
telco lives under, they are required to provide the service when asked
(and paid). I could be wrong though, it is hearsay. (or seeread, actually)
Bitch to your local regulatory commission and let us know what happens }:>
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of
Dalvenjah FoxFire
Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 10:20 PM
To: Geoff White
Cc: ^Faust^; David Lesher; Jay R. Ashworth; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Microsoft offering xDSL access
On Fri, Jan 23, 1998 at 08:57:52PM -0800, Geoff White put this into
my mailbox:
>
>
> > Tell him to order a 2-wire alarm circuit and slap a Tut 12000 (or
your favorite
> > product) on each end. Yes, I've done it. And yes, it was in P*B
territory.
> >
>
>
> Their wise to that now
> There seems to be a moratorium on "alarm circuits"
As I understand it this is illegal; as long as the service (alarm circuit,
dry pair, whatever) is tariffed by whatever regulatory commission the
telco lives under, they are required to provide the service when asked
(and paid). I could be wrong though, it is hearsay. (or seeread, actually)
Bitch to your local regulatory commission and let us know what happens }:>
They may not be able to stop you from ordering a dry pair, but they may not
have
to run it directly from your point A to the CO to point B. They can run it
6 miles out to bumbleville and them to point B, thwarting your scheme.
