list problems?

Actually (without hoping to trigger a flame war), there are a lot of very
large comanies, mainly in the US (mainly in the finanial sector or
eduction sector, and occassionaly in the defense sector), who DO refuse to
hire without a degree.

There are many good technical persons out there who don't have a degree.
There are almost many unemployeed technical persons who would make better
admins / engineers than some people I know who have degrees.

With the current situation, I see the following:
  Proportionally here are more technical people in jobs WITH degrees than
    without
  People with degrees have more experience, and get farther

I believe the latter reason is because more people hire candidates with
degrees. Vicious circle.

Not hiring people who don't hold degrees is fast becoming a policy matter.
The reasons for it are numerous. Very few (IMO) are 'good' reasons.

With the current situation, I see the following:
  Proportionally here are more technical people in jobs WITH degrees than
    without

So maybe that's my problem. I dropped out of university because I felt
completing my degree would be an endorsement of a flawed post-secondary
education system. (I completed 37 of 40 credits required for a BCS, so it
would have been only a small effort to finish)

I only hired 2 full-time staff in my Ottawa office that held a university
degree. One I fired after 2 months, the other I fired after 3.

-Ralph

"Sir, I think you have me confused with someone who cares".

I'm not sure, someone who has a degree sometimes shows that they have
the ability to stick with something long term and complete it. I
realize that is an over generalization but it does show something. On
the other hand I can think of some good reasons why someone might not
have a degree but still be totally qualified.

*jumping on my soap box*
I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is
obsurd. Sure it is an easy way to discount the ones that are too stupid
to perform the job, but there are a lot of very qualified people in the
pool that don't have degrees. For instance, I do network engineering,
design and troubleshooting for a lot of people (including being a Level-3
with VT's 4help staff) but I don't have a degree YET..In fact I'm failing
several classes that aren't related to Comp Engineering. So why should I
be judged over my abilities to find the forces on objects instead of my
abilities to troubleshoot a network that is having problems? Here's my
current problem...I had a very good offer for a co-op at the same
place where I had an internship for last summer and MORE than proved my abilities. But because
it was a government position they asked for my transcript and then "selectively lost" my co-op forms.
So why should I be judged on my GPA (which is still higher than most of
the engineers at Virginia Tech) instead of my past experience level? I
know several degree holding people who couldn't code or troubleshoot a
network if they tried, and that is what they studied in college. And
lastly, why should I be required to hold a degree in a field that isn't
even the same as what I do for a living....A computer engineer/scientist
only learns in college how to code software or design hardware. Not how
to maintain a network or configure a router. That is what the career
certs are for, they should be designed into college curriculums and then
maybe I would enjoy my college experience......
*stepping down*

BTW I'm looking for a summer job, it seems nobody wants networking
interns....I've had 10 full-time offers but nothing for summer only....And
yes companies are hiring left and right for IT people and the industry is
picking back up.

- Andrew

I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is
equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE
test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Regards,
Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
Broadband Laboratories
http://www.bblabs.com

Andrew Dorsett said:
*jumping on my soap box*
I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is
obsurd.

A degree may be completely unnecessary to be a "Network Engineer",
or other similar position. The problem is that those positions
are "Entry Level" in the networking industry. You probably don't
need a degree to work in a NOC. Heck, and many places NOC staff
have more in common with McDonald's fry cooks than with network
engineers. The real question is, do you want to progress in your
job?

If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a
theoretical group you are going to need the math and English
backgrounds that college provides. You may also need a deeper
knowledge of hardware and software to understand a vendors limits,
and work with them on appropriate solutions. You will need to be
able to work on large projects, involving many people to do complex
tasks, all part of what college can help you learn.

So, do you need a degree to get a job? Absolutely not. Can you
make the same money initially without a degree, most likely.
However, I suspect you'll find more often than not without one in
5 years you'll have gotten your 10% raise and still be a grunt,
while your coworkers who had that preparation will have been moved
up to roles with more responsibility, and significantly more money.

What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows
the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference
between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man.

Of course, the upside to that is, you will only wind up working in places
with a high enough clue level to understand your value, hence you will be
happier...

Anyplace that is going to exclude you for a lack of paper, wouldn't
appreciate you for your talents anyway. (in my experience)...

As far as 'degrees mean you are capable of 'sticking with' something', I
would think that a look at someone's employment history for the last 10
years or so would indicate that MUCH better than 4 years of sitting through
outdated lectures...

If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't
get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with'
something?

Yours in Networking,

Paul A Flores

I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is
equally as obsurd.

I think you mean "absurd", a word you should have heard a lot by now.

I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test;

Emperor-Level CCIE? I don't even know where to go with that one.

however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Certifications exist to help those without the knowledge to verify for
themselves decide if you have clue or if you are just bullshitting. Yes
I have seen people with CCIEs who could barely route their way out of a
paper bag, and I have seen people with no certifications who are more
useful than 100 CCIEs put together. But as a whole, the system works
fairly well, or companies would not put weight in Cisco certifications.

They can also do a good job telling us the difference between someone who
runs an actual network, vs say a hosting company located in a closet next
to a legacy Global Crossing access pop in Tucson AZ, where they have a DS3
yet claim to have a national OC192 network, and who steals graphics from
reputable companies like GX, EXDS, and CSCO.

http://www.bblabs.com/highspeed.htm
http://www.bblabs.com/data_center_picture.html
http://www.bblabs.com/dedicated_server.htm

I once dared to require candidates to submit written answers to three essay questions (200 to 300 words), along with their applications. The questions were about the technical subject, but the purpose in asking was to see if they could spell, and write in complete sentences.

We did a formal analysis of the job beforehand, and decided that the ability to _write English_ was foremost, even ahead of the specific technical skills the job also required. This person dealt with a large community of people via email. (DNS top-level hostmaster for a large company.)

We got a good guy. He's still there.

When I see a resume with more degrees than a thermometer, but even minor spelling, punctuation, or other such errors, I throw it out. Meticulous attention to detail matters a lot in this business.

If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a
theoretical group you are going to need the math and English
backgrounds that college provides. You may also need a deeper
knowledge of hardware and software to understand a vendors limits,
and work with them on appropriate solutions. You will need to be
able to work on large projects, involving many people to do complex
tasks, all part of what college can help you learn.

I really thought I was going to stay out of this, but I can't ignore this;
sorry to those that are justifiably irritated by this thread:

I'm not dismissing that a college education has real value, but let's keep
it in perspective. Real-world example: I have only a few college
credits. Since I'm almost 41, I don't see myself finding time to pursue
it much further. My wife, on the other hand, just got her Phd from an
Ivy League institution. I don't think anyone that knows us feels that she
has a much better grasp of English or Math than I do. She has a *much*
better grasp of her field (Sociology) than I will ever have, and I have a
much better grasp of mine than she ever will.

My point is this: There is no magic switch or metamorphosis that occurs
when one gets a degree. It's an admirable achievement, but IMHO, no more
so than starting an ISP from scratch and building it into a profitable
business. I could easily make a case that the latter is a better "real
world" lesson. It certainly is a better real world bread winner.

So, do you need a degree to get a job? Absolutely not. Can you
make the same money initially without a degree, most likely.
However, I suspect you'll find more often than not without one in
5 years you'll have gotten your 10% raise and still be a grunt,
while your coworkers who had that preparation will have been moved
up to roles with more responsibility, and significantly more money.

This is probably correct, unfortunately. That is why, after all is said
and done, I would strongly encourage anyone who's started school to at
least get a BA/BS. For real and perceived reasons, it leaves one with
more options...and you won't need to haul around that big chip on your
shoulder for the rest of your life, like I do. :=)

James Smallacombe PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor
up@3.am http://3.am

Speaking as someone who is currently in a degree program in information science
for a major university --

Certification in the IT industry has become a nightmare because people who are
less than clueful have abused it in the hiring and compensation processes.
While it would be absurd to hire a professional engineer (say, to build a
skyscraper or a bridge) without verifiable professional credentials, and there
are significant social penalties for people attempting to pass themselves off as
professional engineers (or doctors, or lawyers, etc.), there are no such
penalities for IT personnel.

And industry certification is the worst of these offenders. Cisco, Microsoft
and Novell (among others) have effectively created long-standing revenue streams
out of the ridiculous complexity of their products. Some of that complexity is
justified, without question. And some of it is deliberate to drive the need for
"certified" professionals. A vicious cycle -- these "professionals" pay
exhorbitant fees for 3-day or 5-day drench sessions where they come away with 1%
retention and must be hired shortly thereafter to actually use anything they
retained. Their expectation: high pay rates and a career track.

In reality, the people who pay for these certifications are the end users of the
products. The companies who send people to be trained, or expend more money for
salaries. However, they are typically buying a pig in a poke. They could no
better evaluate what certifications are necessary, and in what contexts, than I
could evaluate the quality of an engineer to build my bridge or skyscraper.

Thus, the IT industry is incentized to produce more certification programs which
produce marginally less utility; the smart business is less incentized to pay
for it, and the less-smart business is apt to pay for it a couple times, til
they get stung enough that they decide it's not worth it and outsource; and the
certificate-holder is less-inclined to pad his or her resume with useless paper.

The system is broken. Like a drunk bobbing down a blind alley, businesses will
bounce back and forth between outsourcing the kitchen sink and bringing it back
in-house, all in an effort to cut the cost of IT as a corporate resource and
maximize its "value" which (contrary to the folks that like to assign metrics to
everything) is foggy at best.

The smart will get smarter, and the not-so-smart will get the shaft. Either
way, the IT industry will milk it til there is no money in it, then move on.
The cerificate-holder will be left with a lot of paper and marginally less
social legitimacy out of it.

I mean, I was a Merit Scholar Finalist in high school. Who the hell cares.
Unlike a university education, which has a certain amount of staying power, the
value of industry certifications is fleeting.

Unfortunately, there are two forces at work that will keep industry
certification in this state:

(1) the tendency for private companies to create their products in ways that
bastardize open standards and create complex, proprietary systems in order to
keep up barriers to competition;

(2) the tendency for proprietary systems to have relatively short lifecycles,
and for standards and practices to consolidate as time progresses.

The value afforded a university education is in its universality. A bridge
engineer can build bridges out of concrete or cable, depending on what's called
for. If I were a Microsoft bridge builder, I know how to build bridges using
Microsoft concrete and Microsoft cable, but unless it's all the same stuff I
cannot apply my bridge-building skills to non-Microsoft venues.

The narrow scope of industry certification will be its undoing, unless one can
create industry certifications that exemplify industry-wide best practices.

From my extremely limited perspective, it looks like Cisco does this, but I have

never taken a Cisco class so I cannot comment with authority. Anyone?

Richard A Steenbergen wrote:

</lurk>

Yeah!

  This PC and Internet revolution was founded by men with Advanced
Degree's from Prominent Ivy League Colleges...

  Like Bill Gates...

Oh.... No, wait...

:open_mouth:

up@3.am wrote:

> If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger,

manager

or run a
> theoretical group you are going to need the math and English
> backgrounds that college provides.

  Yeah, Einstein wouldn't have made it anywhere, without his
background in Mathematics that he got from a Prominent Ivy League...

Oh...... Shoot, did it again.

  :\

IMHO: Recruiters who need degree's to identify competence
can be replaced with a 5 dollar an hour secretary,
and a black marker pen.

"Yes, No...... Eenie Meenie Minie Moe,
the one with the most prominent degree...
is the one with which we will go...

dressed up right, in a light shirt and dark tie...
after all, we sure don't want the other kind of guy."

I mean, after all look at Vixie.. his shirt has so
much starch... and you can't get him to take his
Tie off....or unbutton his dark suit....

Oh, Crud.... not again !

:smiley:

Ok.. Well, wait....

  maybe Richard Stallman..

I... er...

:stuck_out_tongue:

<lurk>

Interesting. My personal experience, the experience of various people I
know, and stuff I think I've read somewhere, tend to show the opposite.

Coming out of high school in 1995 with every opportunity to go to college,
but feeling burned out enough on school that I thought it was best to wait
a year or two, the tech jobs available to somebody with no experience and
no college education tended to be of the very low paying variety. I found
a job at a company that had interesting stuff to do but no money to pay
somebody who already knew how to do it, so for probably about what I would
have been making at McDonald's I started learning how to run office LANs
for my employer and their clients, do some fairly simple programming, and
other things of that sort. I've moved up considerably, both financially
and technically, since then, but it took a few years for my salary to
reach and pass what my college educated friends were making in their first
post-college jobs. It seems pretty obvious to me that for somebody
without work experience, there's no question that a college degree is
worth a considerable amount of money. At this point, it's been several
years since my lack of a degree seemed to be an issue.

That said, I certainly wouldn't tell anybody who didn't have a clear idea
of what they wanted to do instead, and why it couldn't wait, not to go to
college. A lot of my non-college educated friends didn't do all that
well; not starting out, and not several years down the line. A college
degree may not be absolutely essential, but in most cases it probably
helps. As for me, it's been a couple years since I was last job hunting.
Maybe I'm in for a rude awakening.

I went on from that first job to spending most of what might otherwise
have been my college years building and running the network of a growing
local ISP, and learning an incredible amount in the process. I'm pretty
sure I learned far more about how the Internet works doing that than I
would have had I spent 1995-99 in college, and it looks to me now as if
the sorts of learning experiences I had during that time wouldn't have
been nearly as available four years later after the Internet had become a
big business, or now during the economic crash. I made the right choice
for me at the time, and then I was quite lucky.

-Steve

bicknell@ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) writes:

If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a
theoretical group you are going to need the math and English
backgrounds that college provides. ...

So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during
my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job?

Probably I wouldn't have that honorary MSCS degree either. Wouldn't've
wrote all that code, nor those RFC's, nor started those various companies.

Wouldn't've found my various mentors nor been a mentor to any of the folks
who count me as having been one?

Is that how a college degree would have improved my career by age 39?

Sounds like a bad deal to me.

Thus spake "Stephen Kowalchuk" <skowalchuk@diamonex.com>

Certification in the IT industry has become a nightmare
because people who are less than clueful have abused it in
the hiring and compensation processes.

Picture yourself as a job-seeker three years ago. Every recruiter you call
hangs up on you because you don't have a CCNA. What's the obvious
conclusion? CCNA == job.

Try getting an accounting job without being a CPA; it's possible in some
states, but it's not easy.

And industry certification is the worst of these offenders.
Cisco, Microsoft and Novell (among others) have effectively
created long-standing revenue streams out of the ridiculous
complexity of their products. Some of that complexity is
justified, without question. And some of it is deliberate to
drive the need for "certified" professionals.

Perhaps Microsoft or Novell has done that, I can't speak to their practices.
Cisco only created its certification programs at the request of customers.

I've also never seen any evidence whatsoever that Cisco intentionally makes
it products difficult to learn or use. If they end up that way, it's
usually budgetary or time constraints.

A vicious cycle -- these "professionals" pay exhorbitant fees
for 3-day or 5-day drench sessions where they come away
with 1% retention and must be hired shortly thereafter to
actually use anything they retained. Their expectation: high
pay rates and a career track.

Seems like they're getting suckered by the training community (not Cisco,
which doesn't do training).

The smart will get smarter, and the not-so-smart will get the
shaft. Either way, the IT industry will milk it til there is no
money in it, then move on. The cerificate-holder will be left
with a lot of paper and marginally less social legitimacy out
of it.

I think P.T. Barnum had something to say about that.

(1) the tendency for private companies to create their
products in ways that bastardize open standards and
create complex, proprietary systems in order to keep up
barriers to competition;

What is one person's barrier to competition is another's first-to-market
advantage or value-add.

Standards committees are slow and the results often suck. If you built a
router that only implemented RFCs in "Standard" status, you'd be about 10
years in the past on features, wouldn't interoperate with anyone on the
market, and probably wouldn't sell a single unit. Is that the other
vendors' fault?

If I were a Microsoft bridge builder, I know how to build
bridges using Microsoft concrete and Microsoft cable, but
unless it's all the same stuff I cannot apply my bridge-
building skills to non-Microsoft venues.

It's interesting to note which industries use interchangeable products that
provide uniform functionality vs. which use highly specialized proprietary
systems. It's also interesting to observe the economic impacts to customers
in each industry type.

If you want uniform products across all vendors, that means you're going to
get the lowest common denominator, and most of the "gotta have" features
your favorite vendor has implemented will go away. Your entire business
model might evaporate if it's based on one of these non-standard features.

The narrow scope of industry certification will be its undoing,
unless one can create industry certifications that exemplify
industry-wide best practices.

That's the goal of the higher-level Cisco certs. The lower-level ones are
purely skills-based.

S

If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't

>get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with'
>something?

That you worked on the Internet in the late 90s?

(Had to post to see if I could overtake Iljitsch van Beijnum. :slight_smile:

In a message written on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 05:00:27PM -0700, Paul Vixie wrote:

bicknell@ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) writes:
> If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a
> theoretical group you are going to need the math and English
> backgrounds that college provides. ...

So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during
my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job?

I said college provides those skills. I did not say college was
the only way to get those skills. The converse is true as well,
having those skills doesn't guarantee success.

Is that how a college degree would have improved my career by age 39?

It is possible had you gone to college you would have done far more.

It is also possible you would have done far less.

It may have not made a difference.

What I firmly believe is that a college graduate is more likely to
be sucessful and be promoted, particularly before they are 30. If
I had to advise someone coming out of high school, I would tell
them their best odds are to go to college. But it's all an odds
game, sometimes you hit on 12 and bust, sometimes you hit on 19
and win.

All that matters it that you have the knowledge. It doesn't matter if you
got it from school or from experience, just that you got it.

If you don't want to learn, all the college in the world isn't going to
help you. But if you love to learn new things, not going to college is not
going to stop you either. Personally I think I've learned more over the
last 4 years than any school is capable of teaching, but thats just me.

Projecting your personal prejustices about what learning style works best
upon others is neither smart nor productive. Can we all just leave it at
that, and try to get back to something operational?

no way...

The option where you come out into "life" 35k in the hole, no experience,
and four years behind your "collegues" is obviously better.

And its hard to put a value on..

that bitterness you learned from spending the "best years of your life"
with a bunch of rich, drunken dumbasses.

The tolerence you gained from all those times your learning was
decelerated, just to allow for johnny football star to meet status quo.

The anger from seeing Johnny pull his head of his jock just long enough to
see daddy hand him a 150k VP position.

As mastercard sais.. priceless.

And no, I'm not bitter..