LinkedIn password database compromised

The problem:
- Modern internet users must have lots of different login/passwords around
the internet. Most of then in easy-to-break poorly-patched poorly-managed
servers, like linkedin.

The solution:
- Reduce the number of authentication. Allow anonymous posting in more
sites.

Imagine this. I post something on the blog "yadaydayda". I give my email
and nothing else. The blog software sends me a email to confirm the post.
I click on it, and the post is published.

The real problem is that nowdays everybody and his dog want a password, and
a password is expensive for the user. The internet need more anonymous
ways to publish content.

maybe? they don't seem to want to be the 'identity provider' directly
though, or rather they point out that your corporation could be your
identity provider (or anyone else you might trust) they simply sell
the enabling software/tech.

The problem:
- Modern internet users must have lots of different login/passwords around
the internet. Most of then in easy-to-break poorly-patched poorly-managed
servers, like linkedin.

The solution:
- Reduce the number of authentication. Allow anonymous posting in more
sites.

Imagine this. I post something on the blog "yadaydayda". I give my email
and nothing else. The blog software sends me a email to confirm the post.
I click on it, and the post is published.

The real problem is that nowdays everybody and his dog want a password, and
a password is expensive for the user. The internet need more anonymous
ways to publish content.

Maybe so, but anonymous entries on linkedin seems like a zen koan,
beyond the powers of my simple mind.

Regards
Marshall

so... now that this can is open, has anyone looked at:
<http://www.oneid.com/&gt;

yep. yet another bucket of identity slime wanting to resell my
identity.

maybe? they don't seem to want to be the 'identity provider' directly
though, or rather they point out that your corporation could be your
identity provider (or anyone else you might trust) they simply sell
the enabling software/tech.

so they provide tools to indentity resellers. the folk their software
enables are still *reselling* MY identity.

my point is that it is MY identity. there are tools, such as 1password,
which enable me to control MY identity and yet have the effect of single
sign-on.

and i believe it is important that mom and pop retain control of their
identities.

randy

There's a distinction between anonymous and pseudonymous. I'm
certainly not the former, but to all but maybe a dozen or two NANOG'ers, I'm
pretty much the latter - somebody who always posts from the same
identity, but they've never actually personally verified the identity.

Not if enough of us get behind CACERT.

Non-profit organization providing fee certificates based on web of trust
model.

http://www.cacert.org

For any of you in the bay area and/or who encounter me in my various
travels, I am an CACERT top-level notary.

Personally, I like the SSH model and simply giving the web-site your
public key at sign-up, but, there are issues with that as well...

If your private key is compromised, how do you notify all of the web-sites
that it needs to be revoked?

Owen

Imaging signing up for a site by putting in your email and pasting
your public key.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

I've been making this exact argument for about a year. It even retains
the same "email a link" reset mechanism when someone needs to reset
their key.

A common counter-argument is, "But ordinary Internet users won't
understand SSH keys." They don't need to! The idea is easily explained
via a lock-and-key metaphor that people already understand. The UI for
walking users through key creation is easily imagined.

-Snow

Oh yeah, I can just imagine that "lock and key" conversation now...

"Imagine if the website has a lock on it, and you tell them what key you want to use by giving them a copy."
"But if they have a copy of my key, couldn't they use it to open all of the other locks I've set up to use it?"
"(explain public key crypto)"
"(drool, distraction by the latest Facebook feature)"

Wrong approach...

"Imagine if the website has a lock created by each user. The user creates the lock by giving the web site their "lock template". Once you give them the "lock template", only your key will open that lock."

(Lock template = public key, key = private key)

"No, the lock template won't open the other copies of the lock template. Only the key will open the lock template, but, the key will open all the lock templates. It's just like having all the locks on your house "keyed alike". I can't take the lock off the front door and use it to open the back door, neither can the lock template given to one website be used to unlock your account at another website."

The other problem with this approach is that, as bad as trusting remote sites to do security properly is, I'm not sure that putting a "one key to rule them all" on users' machines is that much better, given the average user's penchant for installing malware on their machine because "FunnyMonkeyScreensaver.exe" sounded like such a good idea at the time... I suspect we'd see a huge wave of malware whose sole purpose is to steal public keys (and you KNOW users won't password-protect their private keys!). Plus, now you have the problem of users not being able to login to their favourite websites when they're using a friend's computer, internet cafe, etc, unless they've remembered to bring a copy of their private key with them.

Yeah, there is that problem as well. Personally, I'd like to see someone produce what amounts to a mini-HSM such as a USB-dongle that will contain but never emit the private key, and perform one of the following functions, given the right one-time password (which could be produced either by display on the dongle, or, by a mobile app):

  1. Emit public key.
  2. Encrypt challenge response or other data using private key.
  3. Create new keypair.

This would provide the benefits of 2-factor authentication along with the ease of the proposed SSH-key mechanism. The key wouldn't be accessible to malware and in order to exploit the key, the malware would have to convince the user to enter their one-time password and/or
would be required to beat the legitimate application to the request (in which case, the legitimate application's request would fail making the failure obvious to the user).

I think public key auth for websites is a great idea for geeks who understand the benefits, limitations and security concerns, but I have serious doubts that it would hold up when subjected to the "idiot test".

I think that there is a lot of UI work to be done in this area, but, that it can actually be made safe and effective for lay-persons.

After all, if Blizzard can get a bunch of their players using 2-factor tokens for authentication, this can't really be that much harder.

Owen

Yet again, another org (free or not) that is holding my identity hostage.
Would you give cacert your SSH key and use them to log in to your
Linux servers? I'd bet most *nix admins would shout "hell no!"

So why would you make them the gateway for your online identity?

-A

I rarely reply to threads. However the point of interest that is missed is "Not supported anymore because Microsoft says so". So Microsoft starts putting out systems at one per year and not supporting old ones because they "Have you over a barrel"?

Tell your daughter she can't get married? You haven't bought your new operating system this year, and "backward compatible" is a thing of the past?

Then it is $119.00 per year on top of that (maybe)?

Let's say Microsoft promised business to the PC building companies and decides that an operating system per year is only supported on new equipment? The cost to vote could be thousands per year. Only the rich can afford to vote?

The point is that you have to be careful about where you go with technology and who controls it. I am sure there are people who would love to see voting as a "can you afford it" right.

Nah... They've obviated the need with superPACs and other mechanisms for purchasing the politicians we vote for much more cost effectively than purchasing the elections themselves.

Owen

If single sign-on is done right, then YOU are the identity provider and YOU
own your identity. It does, however, potentially enable cross-site tracking.

Owen

I gotta agree with Aaron here. What would be my motivation to "trust" an open and public infrastructure? With my business or personal keys?

-Hammer-

"I was a normal American nerd"
-Jack Herer

HuH?

They don't hold my identity hostage. They sign my identity. That's it.

I create the certificate and the private key. They never receive the private key.
They merely provide a mechanism by which trusted parties can verify and then
attest that I am, indeed, who I claim to be.

Would I consider using my X.509 certificate as an authentication method for
my linux servers? Not at this time for the simple reason that the combinations
of expiry and the UI complexities in doing so make it significantly less
convenient than my SSH keys.

However, if it were made to be equally convenient with SSH keys, then, I
don't see a problem with it.

Owen

A proper CA does not have your business or personal keys, they merely
sign them and attest to the fact that they actually represent you. You are
free to seek and obtain such validation from any and as many parties as
you see fit.

At no point should any CA be given your private key data. They merely
use their private key to encrypt a hash of your public key and other data
to indicate that your private key is bound to your other data.

You trust DMV/Passport Agency/etc. to validate your identity in the form
of your government issued ID credentials, right?

That doesn't give DMV/Passport Agency/etc. control over your face, but,
it does allow them to indicate to others that your face is tied to your
name, date of birth, etc.

Owen

Thank you for educating without insulting. Always professional Owen. It's appreciated.

-Hammer-

"I was a normal American nerd"
-Jack Herer

It also allows them to sign anyone they want as someone pretending to be you, but with a different key pair.

Just like the DMV could, if it wanted to (or was ordered to) issue a drivers license with my name and DL number but an FBI agent's photo and thumbprint associated.

You'd want your logins to be at sites that only trusted CAs that you trusted to not do this... for HTTPS we're already way over that line I'm afraid.

Matthew Kaufman

Hi Randy,

hi etaoin,

> I still don't want single sign on. Not anywhere.

i believe that 'single sign on' is a bad deal and dangerous for all, not
just we geeks. essentially it means that the 'identiry provider' owns
your identity. i love that they call themselves 'identity providers'
when it is MY fracking identity and they are reselling it.

I agree.

the 'single sign on' i encourage for the end using human beings i
support is 1password and its ilk. it provides the user with one sign-on
yet strongly encourages separation of identities and strong passwords
for sites.

Local repository of passwords, aggregation in a way. Right? Encrypted?
Open source?

add to that, something such as ghostery for your browser, and you have a
small chance of actually preserving your identity and minimizing cross-
site tracking.

randy

mh

Sorry to be the bearer of such bad tidings.

I'm a very amateur cryptologist so some of this is new to me:
"Any organization using SHA-1 without salting user passwords is
running a great risk -- much higher than they should," said Per
Thorsheim, chief information security advisor at Norwegian IT services
company EVRY. "We've seen this time and time again. This is not good
practice. Salt should be a minimum."

This, however, is all too commonplace:
"We take the security of our members very seriously."

This is the only security item they have and it's mission critical right?
The issues are well understood and highly publicized.
The procedures are simple.
Taking a casual interest in security pretty much precludes mistakes here.
I'm not fooled at all.

The current system can work if applied correctly but time and again
we're seeing failure from service providers to follow the dots.
As I mentioned I'm no expert but I don't think widening the circle of
trust is the correct answer regardless of the technology. There's no
technology shortfall here.
Self signed certificates does sound great and for most purposes,
certainly in this case, fulfills all the requirements. There's no need
to verify anything about me is correct other than to tie my
authentication to my account. If I fail to meet the TOS then the plug
is easily pulled and any further activity can be dealt with as it
currently is by other means. I think there's enough risk in bringing
in a CA and so little advantage that it's wrong.

As far as moving the cryptographic responsibility from the service
provider to us - I'm all for it. They've been telling us for some time
now they'd rather not do that stuff.
I'd much rather have control and introduce something a little sleeker.
As far as users go, if they have to learn it to get on FaceSpace then
they'll learn it - that's a given.
There's no reason for it not to be optional anyway.

To all the people who've figured this out, my hat's off.

I'm very suspicious of any mention of a browser being involved in this
process though.
Shifiting some software responsibility to the client probably brings
new/different danger anyway but probably the last piece of goop that
should be involved is a browser.
That's anecdotal aversion but I'll stand by it.

No argument about that at all.

Owen

It also allows them to sign anyone they want as someone pretending to be
you, but with a different key pair.

You're exacly correct but in this case I don't think CAs are necessary
and probably detrimental so it's moot.

Currently I don't care at all if somebody joins YouTube with my name
or whatever and has a password I know nothing about. Well I do care a
little.
The point is that there's nothing sensitive about a username/password
combination for these type of accounts.
We don't care.
I'm sure I've communicated on the internet with President Obama and Johnny Cash.
If there's ever any doubt and something nefarious is going on there
are other methods.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that this is appropriate for
anything sensitive.
In short nothing changes at all other than swapping certificates for passwords.

If my bank wants to start doing it then they'll have to keep doing
what they're doing now and use other channels to verify me at
establishment, i.e. I'll have to walk into a branch and verify myself
and give them a USB stick with my certificate or whatever ...

the 'single sign on' i encourage for the end using human beings i
support is 1password and its ilk. it provides the user with one
sign-on yet strongly encourages separation of identities and strong
passwords for sites.

Local repository of passwords, aggregation in a way. Right? Encrypted?
Open source?

local repository good, i.e. the user owns and controls. others can not
associate the user's different identities. (again, run the ghostery
browser add-on)

encrypted good, a bit protected from loss of laptop, a 'maid attack',
etc.

open source sure would be good

randy