ipv6 transit over tunneled connection

1) see gblx/ntt/sprint/twt/vzb for transit-v6
2) tunnel inside your domain (your control, your MTU issues, your
alternate pathing of tunnels vs pipe)
3) don't tunnel beyond your borders, really just don't

tunnels are bad, always.
-chris

I see so many times, that tunnels are bad for IPv6, but this is the way IPv6 has been designed to work when you cannot get direct IPv6. So I would not say tunnels are bad, but direct IPv6 is better (OECD document on IPv6 states the use of tunnels).

If the issue with tunnel is MTU, then a non-negligible part of IPv4 does not work well with MTU different of 1500. With IPv6 we bring the concept of jumbo packets, with large MTU. If we cannot work with non standard MTUs in IPv6 tunnels, how will we work with jumbo packets?

I agree - if you can get native v6 transit then more power to you. But
tunnels are sure better than no IPv6 connectivity in my mind. Aside from
slight performance/efficiency issues, I've never had an issue.

-Jack Carrozzo

I'm curious what providers have not gotten their IPv6 plans/networks/customer ports enabled.

I know that Comcast is doing their trials now (Thanks John!) and will be presenting at the upcoming NANOG about their experiences.

What parts of the big "I" Internet are not enabled or ready?

- Jared

I said somewhere in here... wierd quoting happened.

Hello,

We're in the early stage of planning ipv6 deployment -
learning/labbing/experimenting/etc. We've got to the point when we're
also planning to request initial ipv6 allocation from ARIN.
So I wonder what ipv6 transit options I have if my upstreams do not
support native ipv6 connectivity?
I see Hurricane Electric tunnel broker BGP tunnel. Is there anything
else? Either free or commercial?

1) see gblx/ntt/sprint/twt/vzb for transit-v6
2) tunnel inside your domain (your control, your MTU issues, your
alternate pathing of tunnels vs pipe)
3) don't tunnel beyond your borders, really just don't

tunnels are bad, always.
-chris

I see so many times, that tunnels are bad for IPv6, but this is the way IPv6 has been designed to work when you
cannot get direct IPv6. So I would not say tunnels are bad, but direct IPv6 is better (OECD document on IPv6
states the use of tunnels).

Tunnels promote poor paths, they bring along LOTS of issues wrt PMTUD,
asymmetry of paths, improper/inefficient paths (see example paths from
several ripe preso's by jereon/others), longer latency. If the tunnel
exits your border you can't control what happens and you can't affect
that tunnels performance characteristics. it's 2010, get native v6.

If the issue with tunnel is MTU, then a non-negligible part of IPv4 does not work well with MTU different of 1500.
With IPv6 we bring the concept of jumbo packets, with large MTU. If we cannot work with non standard MTUs in
IPv6 tunnels, how will we work with jumbo packets?

a non-negligible part of the ipv6 internet doesn't work at all with

1280 mtu... due to tunnels and some other hackery :frowning: jumbo packets

are a fiction, everyone should stop 10 years ago believing they will
ever work end-to-end between random sites.

-Chris

Verizon has POPs that aren't IPv6 enabled making it a pain in the ass if
you're closer to one of those (currently on month 11 of waiting, I'm
just letting it go because I'm curious how long it'll take), Sprint
isn't doing native IPv6 with their GSR's yet, Cogent's IPv6 visibility
is poor, Level3 isn't accepting new IPv6 "beta" connections, and AT&T
simply told me not available yet.

Tunnels are still a necessity.

~Seth

twt, ntt, gblx, telia all have presence in the US, and all do v6 to
customer links. vote with wallet.

Tunnels promote poor paths

"promote"? Tunnel topology does not (necessarily) match the underlying
topology, especially if you choose (or are forced to accept) a distant
broker. But "promote"?

, they bring along LOTS of issues wrt PMTUD,

PMTUD that doesn't work on v6 probably doesn't work on v4. I agree that
a bad PMTU can wreak more havoc on v6 than v4, but most of the issues
are workaroundable.

asymmetry of paths, improper/inefficient paths (see example paths from
several ripe preso's by jereon/others), longer latency.

All relating to the above. I suspect you really mean paths in the
underlying topology, which is a "by definition" issue. None of these are
necessary features of tunnels.

Given the relatively low number of tunnel terminating services, and the
fairly low level of choice available to people who want tunnels, these
are bigger problems than they need to be. More demand will see these
problems (as with so many transitional issues) lessen substantially.

If the tunnel
exits your border you can't control what happens and you can't affect
that tunnels performance characteristics.

Whereas with IPv4 you have complete control over everything that happens
once packets exit your border? This is no different with IPv6 than with
IPv4, except that you have fewer choices at present, so must make more
drastic compromises.

it's 2010, get native v6.

Easily said :frowning:

If you can't get native IPv6, then using a tunnel lets you get started;
it lets you begin educating, testing and even delivering IPv6-based
services. If, on the other hand, you wait until everything is perfect,
you will be waaaay behind the eight-ball.

Oh - and tunnels are usually way cheaper than native connectivity, so
it's easier to get the idea of going v6 past the bean-counters.

So: Yep, native IPv6 if you can get it. Otherwise, take tunnels. But
whichever you do, do it now.

Regards, K.

Yeah I hear that a lot, but out of those four the only one that will
serve my area is global crossing.

~Seth

I said somewhere in here... wierd quoting happened.

Hello,

We're in the early stage of planning ipv6 deployment -
learning/labbing/experimenting/etc. We've got to the point when we're
also planning to request initial ipv6 allocation from ARIN.
So I wonder what ipv6 transit options I have if my upstreams do not
support native ipv6 connectivity?
I see Hurricane Electric tunnel broker BGP tunnel. Is there anything
else? Either free or commercial?

1) see gblx/ntt/sprint/twt/vzb for transit-v6
2) tunnel inside your domain (your control, your MTU issues, your
alternate pathing of tunnels vs pipe)
3) don't tunnel beyond your borders, really just don't

tunnels are bad, always.
-chris

I see so many times, that tunnels are bad for IPv6, but this is the way IPv6 has been designed to work when you
cannot get direct IPv6. So I would not say tunnels are bad, but direct IPv6 is better (OECD document on IPv6
states the use of tunnels).

Tunnels promote poor paths, they bring along LOTS of issues wrt PMTUD,
asymmetry of paths, improper/inefficient paths (see example paths from
several ripe preso's by jereon/others), longer latency. If the tunnel
exits your border you can't control what happens and you can't affect
that tunnels performance characteristics. it's 2010, get native v6.

I will point out that most of these issues apply to 6to4 and Teredo auto-
tunnels and not as much to GRE or 6in4 statically configured tunnels.

There is a juniper bug which makes PMTU-D a problem if your tunnel
is Juniper<->Juniper.

If the issue with tunnel is MTU, then a non-negligible part of IPv4 does not work well with MTU different of 1500.
With IPv6 we bring the concept of jumbo packets, with large MTU. If we cannot work with non standard MTUs in
IPv6 tunnels, how will we work with jumbo packets?

a non-negligible part of the ipv6 internet doesn't work at all with

1280 mtu... due to tunnels and some other hackery :frowning: jumbo packets

are a fiction, everyone should stop 10 years ago believing they will
ever work end-to-end between random sites.

Jumbo packets do work end to end in some random cases and PMTU-D
works in most others. All of the tunnels I am using have at least a 1280 MTU,
so, I'm not sure why you would think a tunnel wouldn't support 1280.

Owen

er... if I may - this whining about the evils of tunnels
rings a bit hollow, esp for those who think that a VPN is
the right thing to do.

--bill

We don't see Savvis, Level3, or AboveNet with IPv6 capabilities in our region (DC). Two years ago, neither Verizon or AT&T had IPv6, either. Not sure about them now, as we no longer use them for transit. One would think everyone would have v6 capabilities in the heart of government territory, but okay.

For whatever reason, Verio actually charges (or used to) for their IPv6 separately from IPv4 and to top it all off, it wasn't significantly discounted.

-evt

We pick up v6 from HE currently (like the rest of the world). L3 offered us
dual stack also, but they wanted money to set it up plus MRC. None of our
Bits That Matter (tm) go over v6 anyhow. (I guess the right phrase would be
"revenue producing bits").

-Jack Carrozzo

AT&T has told us that they will have IPv6 on their MIS circuits Q2 2011.
Deltacom has told us the same.

We will be testing native IPv6 with both these carriers on GE Internet
circuits sometime around Q3.

-Hammer-

"I was a normal American nerd."
-Jack Herer

I have both Level3 and NTT v6 connections and there are no additional
charges for the service. I recall NTT had one a few years ago, but I
think that's fallen by the wayside.

Mike